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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! > RP to PA -- not a love story.
RP to PA -- not a love story.
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Martin
694 posts
Sep 30, 2014
9:27 AM
(I shot this out on Harp-l an hour or so ago. Since then my frustration has only increased -- more failure -- but I thought I´d take a chance here as well.)

It would be an overstatement to say that I thought my endless problems with sound would simply disappear once I got an RP pedal, equipped with Richard Hunter´s sound patches. But I had hope: just plug the mic into the effects box and connect that into the PA!
Now I´ve tried this on four or five different units -- and this time I´m using the proper cables, which Richard H was kind enough to advice me on -- but it´s the same old story.
That is, as long as I stick to the reverb/delay patches, everything is fine -- but when it comes to those with distortion I couldn´t even have a gig here in my kitchen: People would complain I was too low.
Those patches are, e.g. no 12--14, and 20: unfortunately those that I find the most interesting, but they give me noting but feedback in return.

Please note, this is in No Way meant to reflect poorly on Richard´s work or on the RP: it´s been terribly useful to me in a controlled recording context, but right now, for a live gig, I´m better outfitted with my Boss EQ and a reverb pedal and then into the board.

Do any of you guys recognize this? And if so, have you managed to do anything about it?
I´m using a Beyerdynamic mic, straight to a RP 150 connected to the PA, which is an old Peavey that´s just been refurbished by a friend.

Does this ever end? I once again curse the day that I took up this impossible instrument with all of its problems. But there you go, at 57 it´s a bit too late to start on the saxophone ...

/Martin
KingoBad
1543 posts
Sep 30, 2014
9:36 AM
Does it do the same in other PAs?

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Danny
Martin
696 posts
Sep 30, 2014
9:43 AM
Yes. Small differences but roughly the same: no distortion.
Wendell
36 posts
Sep 30, 2014
9:53 AM
I found the patches that used amp models were set up with too much gain. Once that was dialed back feedback was gone.
Greg Heumann
2843 posts
Sep 30, 2014
11:03 AM
How good is your cupping? The distortion we're after, whether from a tube amp or something attempting to simulate a tube amp's behavior - comes from overdriving the input stage, which comes from .... good cupping. You cannot "manufacture" that sound without it and traditional overdrive pedals the guitar players like will, in my experience, cause major feedback problems.

When you play acoustically, can you cup to the point where you can barely get any sound out of the harp?

With all that said - and I respect Mr. Hunter's passion for this solution - (if I had to use air travel to get to my gigs I would experiment with it much more) - I have still never heard a sim+PA solution that comes close to a good amp.

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***************************************************
/Greg

BlowsMeAway Productions
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Martin
697 posts
Sep 30, 2014
11:22 AM
@Wendell: My problem is that I fear, with good reason, that I can´t even begin to think about re-programming the thing. Way beyond me. But I´ll ask a friend and I thank you for your point.

@Greg Heumann: It´s always hard to gauge your own performances, but I think I can say yes to your question: I can get a good, cupped sound out of a decent PA. (Been playing for quite a while now.)
I quite understand your reluctance towards the amp-modelers, but there are some nice sounds among the Hunter patches -- and, mainly, it gives you considerably more versatility than one of those blues machines, or going straight to PA.
I sometimes play small gigs (just voice and guitar + me) and then provide all the backup outside of my friends strumming and it´s good to have some accordion type sounds etc, as well as the desired distortion for the bluesier/ more rocking tunes.
rogonzab
605 posts
Sep 30, 2014
11:23 AM
Buy a HarpBreak or a HarpAtack, and a delay, you can get good tone whit that (not tube tone, but good)
HarpNinja
3941 posts
Sep 30, 2014
11:26 AM
The patches are designed to be with a Fireball which has a unique gain structure. Chances are that a different mic would run hotter or have a different eq. I noticed a huge difference in tone when trying different mics.
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Mike
My Website
My Harmonica Effects Blog
walterharp
1522 posts
Sep 30, 2014
1:45 PM
I tried one (RP) in a gig situation a few times, and was not very impressed either. It does good for recording as you say and now serves as an effect and Analog digital converter for me.

The software on the thing is flaky (probably there is some glitch in my unit) and I have ended up having to reload richard's patches several times. It is not a very user-friendly process, and if the software is ever going to flake, sure don't want that to happen in a gig.
rainman
139 posts
Sep 30, 2014
3:05 PM
Which RP are you using? You can adjust the master level control and probably take care of most of your problems.
Martin
698 posts
Sep 30, 2014
4:02 PM
@rogonzab: See above: it´s the versatility aspect that´s interesting. As I understand it the LW Attack och Brek pedals are just blues machines. (Stille, they are on my wish list.)

@HarpNinja: It would be a bit surprising if Richard had this specific mic as a prerequisite, although I know he´s using it as his main tool.
Maybe he´ll chime in here or on Harp-l. An Audix is nevertheless out of the question for me right now, since I then wouldn´t be able to eat the rest of the month. What price art etc, but that could prove a bit steep.

@walterharp: That´s not something that has happened to me ... yet. Other nasty things have, but then I was told that I used the wrong cables.

@rainman: I have the RP 150. Yes, with the level control I can reduce my volume but then I can´t be heard, and that´s not ideal.
Reducing the RP level while increasing the PA volume yields the same result in terms of feedback. Not ideal either.
boris_plotnikov
1012 posts
Sep 30, 2014
6:33 PM
When I used RP200 i found only one relatively usable distorted preset of that time (about 5 years ago). It called TWDHRD and it was made with TWEED amp without cab simulation. I never used it live with a full band setup, but for rehearsals and duo-trio gigs it worked really good (possible not perfect in the mean of timbre).
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Excuse my bad English.

My videos.

Last Edited by boris_plotnikov on Oct 03, 2014 3:51 AM
HarpNinja
3943 posts
Sep 30, 2014
6:52 PM
"It would be a bit surprising if Richard had this specific mic as a prerequisite"

I disagree, he frequently mentions the mic and has been pretty transparent about his setting up the patches with that mic. Mic choice makes a huge difference.

You can find the Audix V used for around $75. I have one if someone is interested.
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Mike
My Website
My Harmonica Effects Blog
Barley Nectar
541 posts
Sep 30, 2014
7:59 PM
WOW, GREAT playing Boris!!!
LFLISBOA
9 posts
Sep 30, 2014
9:57 PM
Are you using an impedance tramsformer? Does your mic is low-z? If it is you'll need an impedance transformer, so the RP will receive the correct impedance that will make difference on volume.
Silvertone
162 posts
Oct 01, 2014
5:12 AM
I had feed back issues w/ some patches going into a PA from an RP350. I thought it might be caused by an impedance mismatch . The 1/4" unbalanced outputs are 500 ohms +10db and I was plugging into high impedance inputs on the PA. Id like to try the stereo XLR outs which are 1kohms and +16db but never had two spots open or two XLR mic cables to use.
dougharps
744 posts
Oct 01, 2014
8:25 AM
Learning to use an amp or a modeler and minimizing feedback has a learning curve.

I sometimes use an early Digitech modeler, the Genesis 1. The amp models are not as good as the newer RPs, but the benefit is that you can adjust gain, tone and output parameters with knobs, as though it was an analog device, instead of reprogramming the patches.

With low level monitoring and/or direct recording it gives good results. For live amplified music and monitoring in a band setting, the adjustments are crucial or you will get feedback before reaching reasonable volume levels. It is also important to choose the amp models more selectively to avoid feedback, when you are playing with a band.

When I used the Genesis for live gigs I used a Fireball V through an impedance matching transformer. My 585 works well with it, too. Bullet mics seem less effective in getting volume before feedback. A directional mic is less feedback prone than an omni. A really hot mic will likely cause problems unless you keep the output low with volume control.

With the Genesis 1 I had to choose the blackface model instead of the tweed model for live band playing, because the tweed model was more susceptible to feeding back at higher volumes. Several amp models were useless for harp at any level.

These devices were designed for guitar, so with a mic and harp you have to have use lower gain, just like with a tube amp. Richard Hunter's patch settings are supposed to have addressed this issue. With the Genesis 1 I was very careful about the gain settings when playing live with a band. It worked fine after choosing the right patch and carefully adjusting gain and output levels. Once I had the settings right, I didn't touch except for minor adjustments when changing effects.

The questions above about impedance matching are very important to check out.

Additionally, if the amp/PA has too much gain added to the output of the device, it will make feedback likely, even if the RP is set up properly. You might try using a direct box with different pad settings, or try using a pad on the PA input if it has one. Reversing the phase is another way to fight feedback, if the direct box has a phase reverse switch.

Good luck! I know that RP modelers can work well for live performances since Richard Hunter uses his all the time successfully.

Despite having used the Genesis 1 successfully, I will almost always choose one of my tube amps for a band performance. I have spent the time adjusting each of my amps with different mics at high volume levels and know how to dial it in. With a programmable device, dialing it in is different, and will take practice.
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Doug S.

Last Edited by dougharps on Oct 01, 2014 8:28 AM
Martin
699 posts
Oct 01, 2014
9:12 AM
Thank you guys for all these replies. It´s privilege.

Especially dougharps -- I wish that the RP had such a gain knob, but then I wouldn´t have Richard´s settings ... -- and then I probalby wouldn´t have an RP in the first place.
Of course, I see your point about the tube amps, but as I said above, I tend to require several different sounds.

I followed HarpNinja´s advice and started looking for an Audix on the net (I needed another mic anyway) and hopefully I have landed a reasonable deal on a corresponding Swedish Ebay.
rainman
140 posts
Oct 01, 2014
9:59 AM
I'm surprised by your problem since I own a RP-355 and haven't had much problem controlling feedback. I use several microphone and have used on stage as well as at home with no real problems. A mic with a volume control is a big help to me allowing me to duck just below the feedback. I have altered Richards effects to my liking trough the X-Edit utility. It's really pretty friendly to use. Also on you unit I believe you have an effect's level that you can adjust and should help as well.
Martin
701 posts
Oct 01, 2014
11:13 AM
@rainman: You´re way above me in the tech world. Wouldn´t know where to start -- I´m a plug-and-play man. But I will experiment with the effect level.
And although I´m not inclined towards un-necessary mystery, I´m tend to believe that things f*kh up in a particular way for me. The instances are legion.
Martin
703 posts
Oct 03, 2014
5:54 AM
Interesting. Right now, tested the new Audix Fireball to the PA w/ the same settings as the Beyer. Turns out it sounds even worse -- thinner, shriller and equally prone to feedback.
Will check other possible f-up factors in the near future.
dougharps
746 posts
Oct 03, 2014
7:09 AM
I am assuming you are using a regular low-z, XLR on both ends, cable from the Fireball to an impedance converter to a 1/4" plug to the RP150, and that your output from one channel of the RP150 is going to a line input on the PA, or through a direct box to the low-z XLR input of a PA channel.

Here are some basic troubleshooting steps:

Check the EQ settings on the PA, both for the channel and for the whole PA output. Try starting with flat EQ with maybe a little high frequency roll off on the channel EQ. Check the channel gain if it has one on your PA channel. This is separate from the channel volume and often at the top of the PA controls or near the volume control. Some PAs have several gain and volume controls, some on each channel and some for master monitor and main controls. Turn off any effects on the PA. (What Peavey PA is it?)

If you run the mic straight to the PA XLR input with no RP150 and no converter is there feedback at reasonable volume?

If you run the mic through the impedance converter to the same PA 1/4" input you use for the RP150, is there feedback at reasonable volume? What impedance converter are you using? Is it hooked up mic- XLR cable- converter- 1/4" plug- PA?

If you run the mic/impedance converter/RP150 output to other inputs on your PA, is there feedback using those channels?

Are you sure the PA channel gain settings are correct? Try turning them down at first.

Can you try your setup with a different PA to see if the problem is with your PA?

Have you tried different patches on the RP to be sure it is not just certain patches having this trouble? My high gain amp models would not work at all except with headphones due to feedback, so they were unusable with a band.

Other than trying these things I would recommend you follow Richard's Harp-L advice about lowering the RP150 gain setting. If the PA is working OK without the RP150, and you have tried all of the above, then get in touch with Richard Hunter about the RP150 settings as he suggested.

I am sorry that you are having so much trouble and frustration with this gear. It seems to work OK for others.

Good luck!

Edit for one last thought:
If the model you are using has high levels of compression associated with guitar sustain, it will feed back like crazy. Richard Hunter's patches should not have this kind of compression, or really high gain. Are you using the correct patches?

Again, good luck!
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Doug S.

Last Edited by dougharps on Oct 03, 2014 7:21 AM


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