Chris L
64 posts
Sep 08, 2014
6:52 PM
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Someone told me the other day that "timing trumps note choice" even when playing a familiar song, and that listeners will not only forgive wrong notes, but may actually believe you are simply developing a theme as long as the rhythmic quality of the phrasing remains true. It kind of made sense, esp. in the context of jazz, but also for a lot of blues and blues rock contexts. It has me thinking and experimenting anyway. Any takers? Does timing trump note choice? How far can one take it?
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BronzeWailer
1436 posts
Sep 08, 2014
7:51 PM
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I agree.
I would rather have perfect timing and "wrong" notes than vice versa.
Timing and closely followed by tone are my priorities, then notes.
BronzeWailer's YouTube
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Frank
5240 posts
Sep 09, 2014
5:25 AM
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Here is a good one to analyze the timing errors - many of them due to trying to spew way to many notes into the equation :)
Last Edited by Frank on Sep 09, 2014 5:29 AM
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The Iceman
2032 posts
Sep 09, 2014
5:57 AM
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Strong rhythm will actually define the song without playing the correct notes.
For instance, you can play the rhythm to "Jingle Bells", using only 2 hole inhale and the listener will immediately know what song you are quoting.
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The Iceman
Last Edited by The Iceman on Sep 09, 2014 5:57 AM
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TetonJohn
213 posts
Sep 09, 2014
7:21 AM
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Be a servant to the groove!
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TetonJohn
214 posts
Sep 09, 2014
8:47 AM
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Regarding Jingle Bells, yes, but...
The first 7 notes ARE the same note, so you are getting BOTH the timing and notes correctly -- so it is especially easy to recognize!
(But, as noted above, I certainly agree with the point!)
Last Edited by TetonJohn on Sep 09, 2014 8:50 AM
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The Iceman
2034 posts
Sep 09, 2014
10:35 AM
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geez...picky picky picky. (koff)
Ok, Yankee Doodle Dandy then.
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The Iceman
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LittleBubba
312 posts
Sep 09, 2014
11:56 AM
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I've always thought that "Phrasing" is one of the toughest parts ( for me ) of singing and playing harp. Very simple tunes can be hard to cover if you don't get the phrasing right; and some more elaborate passages, for example,in some of Little Walter's tunes can be really tough to get the phrasing right. Proper staggering of notes is a real art.
On the other side, I've worked hard at leaving some notes, in some tunes, out altogether, because they're implied and heard even if you don't play them, and they can serve to muddy up the space in a tune (depending on what notes others in the band are playing).
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Barley Nectar
516 posts
Sep 09, 2014
6:25 PM
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YEP!
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STME58
1055 posts
Sep 09, 2014
6:54 PM
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Try playing the "Jingle Bells" rhythm using random notes and changing every note, Then play the notes from "Jingle Bells" in order but out of rhythm. Which is more recognizable?
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Rgsccr
278 posts
Sep 10, 2014
1:34 PM
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I can say, as someone who started a couple of years ago playing out at a jam frequented by the some of the best blues guys in the Northwest, what helped a lot was having reasonably good time and knowing when not to play. I'm sure my tone wasn't great, nor was my bending, etc., but at least I didn't play over others and stayed with the beat most of the time. That, plus a good attitude, bought me a lot of good will, and I think will stand anyone thinking of playing out - with a band, at jams, etc. - in good stead. All of this is not to say that it isn't important to improve your tone, bending, knowledge of scales, your ear and so on. But everyone has to start somewhere and having decent time is a great place to begin.
Last Edited by Rgsccr on Sep 10, 2014 1:36 PM
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Mirco
200 posts
Sep 10, 2014
8:26 PM
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David Barrett is fond of saying that "repetition trumps the chord changes." It's not the same phrasing that as the original quotation, but I think the spirit is the same. And I absolutely agree.
The idea is that you should play with good phrasing and repetitively, and it won't matter as much if you match the chord changes (or the "correct" notes). In the blues, a lot of the interest is in the creation and release of tension.
In theory, if you were to play the SAME two bar lick six times over the chord changes, it could actually sound really good. While you would be staying the same, the band would be moving away and coming back, and that would be a real source for the musical tension.
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Mirco
201 posts
Sep 10, 2014
8:28 PM
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Also, as Rick Estrin points out in his fantastic DVD, "if you make a mistake, make sure to repeat it twice." Mistakes-- "wrong notes"-- are right when you make them part of the theme.
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1847
2168 posts
Sep 13, 2014
7:36 AM
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there is nothing worse than
a harmonica player, playing a string of bad notes
and thinking it is ok.... it is not.
it is one of the main reasons a harmonica is considered a toy.
if rick estrin were to play a wrong note on
a recording in the studio,
i can guarantee with 100 percent certainty,
he would either re-record a new part, or "punch in" to fix the mistake.
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i get a lot of request when i play my harmonica
"but i play it anyway"
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i get a lot of request when i play my harmonica
"but i play it anyway"
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STME58
1062 posts
Sep 13, 2014
11:07 AM
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Of course wrong notes are not OK. The question, as I read it, was which is worse, bad timing or wrong note. I think in most cases, an occasional wrong note detracts from the performance less than missed timing.
I think an important idea behind discussion is that there is kind of a yin and yang to mistakes, they are both unacceptable and acceptable at the same time.
Last Edited by STME58 on Sep 13, 2014 11:14 AM
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Greg Heumann
2832 posts
Sep 13, 2014
2:21 PM
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This is like asking - which is more important to life - the lungs or the heart?
Pretty hard to get by without BOTH.
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***************************************************
/Greg
BlowsMeAway Productions
See my Customer Mics album on Facebook
Bluestate on iTunes
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Kaining
58 posts
Sep 13, 2014
7:30 PM
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But you CAN survive with one lung.
Bad example Greg :D
NB: BTW, what's better, trying to avoid bad notes or trying to play the good ones ?
'cause recently, i kind of felt that not getting the good one wasn't as crucial as not playing the bad ones.
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STME58
1065 posts
Sep 14, 2014
12:52 AM
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@Kaining, on the topic of " trying to avoid bad notes or trying to play the good ones". Consider this. Have you ever tried to ride a bike at a moderate speed between two narrowly spaced posts? IF you focus in avoiding the posts it is very hard to do. If you focus on the line you want to take between the posts it is much easier. Hitting a wrong note doesn't have quite the consequence of hitting a post on a bike, but I think that analogy holds.
I find that if I hit a wrong note focusing on a strong resolving note that I want to get to helps me a lot more than trying not to hit another wrong note.
In general, focus on what you want, not on what you want to avoid.
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JustFuya
509 posts
Sep 14, 2014
11:14 AM
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I vote for timing above all.
I just saw some video of a CSN concert in Seattle from last night. David Crosby is still nailing the sweet notes while his mates have backed off the high end. The timing is there but it's a different sound, which is to be expected considering mileage. And it's not bad.
I'd much rather hear that than a broken attempt which lands on a bad or broken note.
My own limits are fluid. I have some high notes that I don't even practice in the woodshed. I find them when the planets align.
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The Iceman
2054 posts
Sep 14, 2014
11:34 AM
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Playing with the intent of avoiding bad notes is fear based playing.
Much better to play fearlessly. There is a way to make every note a good one - based on understanding how to do so and force of will.
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The Iceman
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HarpNinja
3917 posts
Sep 15, 2014
7:04 AM
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Timing/rhythm is most important. I would say the same thing Ice does above regarding timing and playing fearlessly.
Half of my problem with blues harp discussion is about note choice anyways, and how underutilized the whole harmonica is, but that's a whole other thread.
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Mike
My Website
My Harmonica Effects Blog
Rock Harmonica Lessons
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