DanP
265 posts
Aug 20, 2014
5:31 PM
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I have been playing diatonic harp for years but a couple of weeks ago I got my first chromatic harmonica. It's a low cost 10 hole chromatic made in China. It does not have wind saver valves. I thought that the lack of the wind savers might be a good thing-that it might make bending for articulation easier.
It is a very responsive harp but I'm having a strange problem and that is getting a single tone, a problem I never had with a diatonic.
For example if I blow in Hole 5 in the diatonic mode(slide out} for a C-note, 2 tones will sound. I think it might be the draw note in the same hole (D note). I know I am blowing in to only one hole. I can now get one tone by blowing very softly and directing my breath upward but it's a hassle. Could this be related to the lack of wind saver valves or because it's a cheap harp? I don't see how a draw reed can open on an out breath. Can some one clear this up for me? Thanks
Last Edited by DanP on Aug 20, 2014 5:33 PM
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GMaj7
503 posts
Aug 20, 2014
8:11 PM
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It is most likely the lack of wind savers. You are probably sounding both reeds at the same time. When they are side-by-side that is easy to do. However, the other possibility is there is a crack or a leak in the comb and air is going into a bottom chamber and sounding one of those reeds. It has been stated numerous times on this forum and as recently as last week that the cheaper chromatics with no wind savers never play that well.
Hypothetically, if a player wanted to go without wind savers, it would be better on an expensive chromatic where the tolerances are tighter. I modify some of the Deluxes I sell and take off a few on the outer top and bottom plates. This gives the player some bending capabilities as well as reduces the number of potential wind saver problems.
I would give that chrom to your kid, grandkid, neighbor.. and purchase a good chromatic.
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Greg Jones
16:23 Custom Harmonicas
greg@1623customharmonicas.com
1623customharmonicas.com
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dougharps
716 posts
Aug 20, 2014
8:27 PM
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Greg identified two possible causes of sounding two notes when you blow on one hole. Another possible cause would be if the slide that switches between the two reed plates when you push the button is slightly out of alignment and is allowing air to pass into two different chambers. You may be able to see this if you look directly into the hole.
This happened to me once when the mouthpiece was not properly replaced (by me) and the rubber bumper over the screw closest to the button was out of place or worn. The bumper fits in a slot in the slide. This misplaced or damaged bumper can let the spring push the slide too far to the left, allowing the leakage into a second chamber. I took the mouthpiece off, re-assembled properly, and all was well.
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Doug S.
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GMaj7
504 posts
Aug 20, 2014
9:34 PM
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I think Dougharps is probably correct.. I forgot about that one..
That would be the top culprit right there..
I would check that and then go on to the other possibilities..
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Greg Jones
16:23 Custom Harmonicas
greg@1623customharmonicas.com
1623customharmonicas.com
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Pistolcat
678 posts
Aug 20, 2014
10:55 PM
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I'm new to chromatics, too. Is it always around blow 5? is it only the blow note? is it the same note that sounds, like a echo?
I'm asking cause I have real trouble sometimes isolating one hole and blow 4 and 5 is a doubling of notes. When I play diatonic i let my resonating chamber sound the "right" hole, I don't have the need to totally focus my emouchuer... on the chrom this make me blow that double note as both fit my resonance so to speak...
Just a thought...
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Pistolkatt - Pistolkatts youtube
Last Edited by Pistolcat on Aug 20, 2014 10:56 PM
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jbone
1737 posts
Aug 21, 2014
4:03 AM
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I have not had that problem in all the years I've played with and played chromatics. My first couple were Hohner Chrometta models. They had wind savers as have all the chro's I've played. I have also played 270's which I did not care for, Hering 5148 and 7148 models, one of which I still use, Suzuki SCX which I use, and recently a friend gave me a Hohner Chromonica II which is a beautiful art deco looking chromatic. Any and all of these models I have used to good effect.
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GMaj7
505 posts
Aug 21, 2014
5:31 AM
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Pistolcat - Your problem has to do with the identical notes that sit side-by-side. You are actually hitting both of them and they are probably not exactly the same pitch so it sounds like a tremolo harp. It is complex to explain why this happens there but it has to do with the reed blow/draw patter which is reversed at hole #4.
There are a few good workarounds to this. My suggestion to you and to the other new chromatic players is to make a slight modification from SOLO tuning to BEBOP tuning.
The blow 4 & 8 slide in/slide out notes are tuned down 1 whole step. This tuning has a ton of advantages in that it gives you an extra note and also gives you the BEBOP scale.
The biggest advantage is that it eliminates the issues with the reversed reed pattern so you maintain the low-blow/high-draw sequence throughout the harp.
I have a more detailed article on my web site below where I discuss it in more detail. I can make the modification to a chromatic as it is pretty simple if you know how to strip them down and tune them.
Just in case anyone seriously takes my advice I want to make it known that I am not a chromatic player but sell and work on a lot of them.
Hope this helps.
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Greg Jones
16:23 Custom Harmonicas
greg@1623customharmonicas.com
1623customharmonicas.com
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Pistolcat
679 posts
Aug 21, 2014
9:22 AM
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Thanks Greg. I'll consider it. It's becoming less of a problem as I getting more playing time on the chrome. I brought up as another possible problem that could explain the OP.
I can't work on chrom and I'm not sure who can here (in Sweden).
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Pistolkatt - Pistolkatts youtube
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WinslowYerxa
700 posts
Aug 21, 2014
11:19 AM
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Cheaper Chinese instruments have quality control problems. Over on the SlideMeister forum awhile back, players were enthusing about under_$100 Swan chromatics. One of my students bought one and found that the front of the comb and the slide backing plate had light between them. It wasn't anything you could fix by aligning the parts; the comb was defective and made the instrument leaky. He got the seller to exchange it but the replacement had the same problem.
So if you're getting neighboring holes (whether vertical or horizontal neighbors) sounding at once it's probably leakiness due to ill-fitting and mis-shapen parts. Lack of valves will make a harp leaky but will not lead to unwanted notes sounding.
Solution: Buy a better chromatic - Hohner, Suzuki ,and Seydel all make good ones that are readily available in the US. Hering used to be good but their quality has gone downhill and they have poor US distribution.
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Winslow
SPAH connects the world of harmonica
Deepen your playing at the Harmonica Collective
Last Edited by WinslowYerxa on Aug 21, 2014 11:20 AM
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SmokeJS
288 posts
Aug 21, 2014
3:47 PM
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Following Winslow's advice I plan to purchase a less expensive chromatic with windsavers but less expensive is only as compared to the ones out there that cost thousands of dollars. I think that for $150-$250 it's possible to get a good, serviceble, new 12 hole chromatic for learning to play blues in mostly 3rd position. But get down into the $100 range and it seems you might be throwing money away.
I like the tone of the Hohner 270 Deluxe but wood combs aren't my preference. The Suzuki SCX48 looks great for the price, The Seydel DeLuxe is similarly priced but an upgraded round hole mouthpiece will up the total cost by about 35% in my part of the world.
I'm a Special 20 player, both ones fully customized by arzajac and ones I've worked on myself. Not a fan of either Seydel or Suzuki diatonics but if pushed would choose a Seydel. So always interested in other's opinions.
Last Edited by SmokeJS on Aug 21, 2014 3:54 PM
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mastercaster
58 posts
Aug 21, 2014
9:02 PM
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@Smoke
The 270 is good value for $$ .. tight , smooth slide, round holes , easy to hold , after getting some control bending is easy enough .. and since we don't have the issues of comb swelling like a diatonic with a Chrom ..
fwiw , I play Sp 20's until now .. since they first came out ..
so I got to ask .. what's the issue with a wood comb on a Chrom ?
Last Edited by mastercaster on Aug 21, 2014 9:07 PM
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GMaj7
506 posts
Aug 22, 2014
2:15 AM
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Wood combs on a chromatic are not a total deal killer but they very commonly crack around the 1-slot. This usually happens when stress points are created at the fasteners. I guess if was a screw-assembly type wood comb (Most 270s are not), then the manufacturer would bore out the holes to allow for expansion and contraction. Personally, I prefer acrylic models but I'm biased because I have to work on them. Which brings me to the whole point about choosing a chromatic. I think a player should plan on a lot of small maintenance issues. It is just the nature of a chrom. I think they should be purchased with an eye towards ease of repair and simple repairs.
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Greg Jones
16:23 Custom Harmonicas
greg@1623customharmonicas.com
1623customharmonicas.com
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SmokeJS
289 posts
Aug 22, 2014
3:17 AM
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@ mastercaster
There's a taste I associate with wood combs that I don!t much like but it mostly seems to come from the brass reedplates. So the recessed Special 20 comb eliminates that. So that's where my bias comes from. My exception is a couple of Thunderbird's as Special 20's aren't available to me in low keys.
One question. Why is wood comb swelling associated with diatonics and not chromatics?
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dougharps
717 posts
Aug 22, 2014
6:23 AM
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Re:wood comb swelling and other issues
Historically the wood comb diatonics such as the Marine Band, Old Standby, and Bluesharp were not well sealed, so when they were played wet, especially likely with wet tongue block, the moisture was absorbed and the comb swelled. The extended tines hurt and made playing difficult.
There was also a somewhat common practice last century of tightening up the diatonic by soaking it in water, whiskey, etc. that REALLY made it swell. Then you had to trim the extending tines, which worked until it dried out and the tines were recessed. Soaking was a BAD idea, and destructive, but for a short time it played really well!
With a chromatic, your mouth is not on the comb, you are on the mouthpiece. If somehow you salivated enough to make the comb wet, it would swell and possibly cause problems, but the mouthpiece separates you from the comb. Your mouth is not directly on the comb, even when tongue blocking.
Saliva can dry on the chromatic mouthpiece and make it stick. One solution is a shallow pan of water deep enough to wet the mouthpiece and not the comb. You put the mouthpiece in the water, work the slide and it rinses the saliva off. Don't get the comb wet!
Unsealed wood comb chromatics can experience changes in the wood due to moisture and temperature changes, and sometimes combs have cracked (this was mentioned above).
Finally, some wood chromatics such as the regular 270s are nailed, making it more difficult to work on a 270 to repair reeds and windsavers inside the chromatic and then reassemble. Since it is wood, the nails can become looser when you put it back together. You may have to take additional steps when reassembling.
I prefer plastic comb chromatics with bolts, though I still play 270s, too.
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Doug S.
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DanP
266 posts
Aug 22, 2014
5:17 PM
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Thanks to all for the information. I guess the moral of my story is you get what you pay for. Does anyone on this forum own one of Hohner's new Discovery 48 chromatics? I hear it's a good harp for new chromatic players. Pat Missin gives it a rave review on his website and it can be had for around $150. That may be what I need.
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harpwrench
899 posts
Aug 22, 2014
5:33 PM
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The Discovery is basically a plastic comb 270, go for it. I had one I was going to hop up, but gave it to an 80yr old relative so I wouldn't have to work on his old broke down 270. He loves it!
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www.spiersharmonicas.com
High performance harmonicas.
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