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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! > Are you a "GOOD" harmonica player - ?
Are you a "GOOD" harmonica player - ?
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Frank
4457 posts
Jun 05, 2014
5:11 PM
Are you a "GOOD" harmonica player - ?

What are the most important ingredients of someone who you would consider a GOOD harp player? Not (great) just (GOOD)...

We're not looking for what distinguishes the beginner from the intermediate etc etc.

What we are after in this thread is after hearing someone play you said to yourself their GOOD...

Why were they GOOD in your opinion, can you put your finger on it?

Can you please elaborate a bit on your views of what makes a harp player "GOOD" ?

Last Edited by Frank on Jun 05, 2014 6:42 PM
Barley Nectar
406 posts
Jun 05, 2014
5:31 PM
TIMMING! A good player has a nice flow with the groove. TIMMING! This fellow knows when to play and when not to. TIMMING! A good harp player gets feeling and expression from less notes. TIMMING! A good harp players job is to make everyone else sound better.

Did I mention TIMMING!...BN

Nice one Frank...

Last Edited by Barley Nectar on Jun 05, 2014 5:33 PM
The Iceman
1707 posts
Jun 05, 2014
5:43 PM
Along with TIMMING, I think Timing is also important.
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The Iceman
OzarkRich
509 posts
Jun 05, 2014
5:44 PM
A GOOD player is anyone that makes me think to myself "I wanna play like that!"
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BronzeWailer
1298 posts
Jun 05, 2014
5:51 PM
Timing and TONE! Some players can just play a warm-up chord and you think "cool"!

BronzeWailer's YouTube
jnorem
253 posts
Jun 05, 2014
5:59 PM
Chops matter, I think, technique, control, facility, whatever.

Tone isn't that important, it's the player, not what gear he uses. But a good sound is a plus.

An imaginative approach is really important to me, originality, uniqueness.

Put all three together and that's a good harp player.


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Call me J

Last Edited by jnorem on Jun 05, 2014 6:00 PM
Littoral
1093 posts
Jun 05, 2014
6:31 PM
Listen, understand basic changes, articulate individual notes and tone seals the deal.
And, listen.
nacoran
7796 posts
Jun 05, 2014
11:14 PM
Can you play enough songs well enough to get more people tapping their shoes than throwing them at you?

It's a moving target though. The more harp I learn, the more critical I become (especially of my own playing). Once I was happy to hit the right note on the right beat. Now I don't feel like I nailed it unless I got the cup right; some notes need just a sliver of the next hole over to get that cranky sound; some notes need tongue effects; some notes need crescendos, others decrescendos.

If you are playing with a band you should be able to control whether you are drawing attention to yourself or not (without having to stop playing altogether)- blend or solo. There should be a conceivable crowd besides your mother who would want to listen to you play.

There may be someone who learned Home on the Range and can play the hell out of it, but you shouldn't just have a couple songs you can play; you should be able to learn and play new songs in a reasonable amount of time. That doesn't mean you have to be able to play the very hardest pieces, but you should be able to handle all the middle stuff if you have to, and fake it sometimes.

And, like Littoral said, you've got to be able to listen.

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Nate
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First Post- May 8, 2009
Mirco
174 posts
Jun 05, 2014
11:16 PM
Good one, Iceman.
Gipsy
71 posts
Jun 05, 2014
11:41 PM
Control. Simple as. Both of oneself and of the instrument ( any instrument ). There has never been a great player without it, let alone a good player.
boris_plotnikov
971 posts
Jun 06, 2014
12:17 AM
Timing, tone, phrasing, playing inside musical context e.g. at least playing in the right key, right scale and not off pitch.
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kudzurunner
4737 posts
Jun 06, 2014
5:02 AM
Not just the ability to play solos (and comps) that acknowledge the changes, but the ability to remain within the groove. Timing, in other words, which several others have noticed.

But I agree, too, with BronzeWailer: tone is essential.

The third thing I look for--or my ears listen for--is blues tonality. I can't categorize somebody as a good player unless they've got a basic ability to play blue pitches, especially (in cross harp) that 3 draw bend.

Groove, tone, and blues tonality. I've always said that those three things, none of which can be notated, are the core of blues harmonica. So in judging a player to be good or not, those things are what my ear is listening for.

Last Edited by kudzurunner on Jun 06, 2014 3:43 PM
harpdude61
2009 posts
Jun 06, 2014
5:58 AM
Anybody gonna mention soul, feel, emotion. Maybe that is what takes a player from good to great.
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Frank
4461 posts
Jun 06, 2014
6:11 AM
I'll mention it Duane....when I connect with a players vibe or energy, I have that instant awareness of yeah, - their good :)
Sherwin
171 posts
Jun 06, 2014
6:18 AM
Frank....
The answer to your question is for me, no, I'm not yet a good player, but I'm workin' on it.

Michael
The Iceman
1711 posts
Jun 06, 2014
6:31 AM
a good harmonica player is one that, after hearing him play once, makes you want to hear more.
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The Iceman
Ted Burke
9 posts
Jun 06, 2014
6:32 AM
Yes.
Sherwin
172 posts
Jun 06, 2014
6:53 AM
Ted are you agreeing with Larry or are you saying you're a good harmonica player?
Both make perfect sense

Michael
groyster1
2618 posts
Jun 06, 2014
7:03 AM
@harpdude...."soul,feel,emotion"....that's what separated little walter from the rest...not skill which many others had as well as him....like Otis reddings vocals...it came from within
Ted Burke
10 posts
Jun 06, 2014
7:04 AM
Yes to both. Actually, the qualities that everyone has listed here about timing, phrasing, tone, chops and command of technique are all things that I value in a harmonica player, so yes to all that. I value style just a tad over technique and chops, though, because I consider style to be the mark of the individual player, the distinct voice that turns the mechanical mastery of the instrument into expressive art. A player's style, those little subtle things they do, are the things that bring back to them time and again. Butterfield and Musselwhite were full of them, Sugar Blue and Sonny Bow Williams are full of them, all those little things players do that rise them from the leagues of the merely competant and unto the realm of the truly inspired. A good style, a brillant expression of what you know what to do, nails me to the wall.
Frank
4462 posts
Jun 06, 2014
7:18 AM
Should a good player be able to enjoy listening the music they create, and If they don't - is there a problem/s?

Last Edited by Frank on Jun 06, 2014 7:19 AM
Barley Nectar
407 posts
Jun 06, 2014
7:39 AM
Yes. I feel a good player will enjoy his own music.

We are, by nature, our own sharpest critics. Most good players will hear things that they would change in a recording. Depending on a persons personality, this may not be a problem. Listening to your self is highly educational, if not pleasurable...BN
The Iceman
1712 posts
Jun 06, 2014
8:03 AM
Be like Miles Davis. Don't play to please the audience or critics.

Play to please yourself.
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The Iceman
Frank
4464 posts
Jun 06, 2014
8:22 AM
My heartfelt tribute to Miles :)

colman
305 posts
Jun 06, 2014
8:28 AM
A good blues harp player has a voice and vibrato and can sing on the harp ...Even if he doesn`t have a ton of licks,that voice is gonna stand out more than any one with flash and licke but no voice,sing it !!!
JInx
796 posts
Jun 06, 2014
10:54 AM
Artistic merit trumps all. You can have all the tone, chops, licks and tricks...but if your artistic sensibilities are lacking it's all for naught.
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Littoral
1094 posts
Jun 06, 2014
11:32 AM
Glad we all agree...
No wonder it's so difficult.
kudzurunner
4738 posts
Jun 06, 2014
3:46 PM
Frank: perhaps you should ask us what distinguishes a good player from an excellent or superb player. I think some contributors to this thread are speaking to excellence. But you quite pointedly didn't ask about excellence--or "great"-ness.

I took you literally: good isn't excellent, but good is good, and there's a threshold below which somebody isn't particularly good.

I'll add something: speed is NOT required in order for me to consider somebody good. In fact, I quite often hear players who have loads of speed but whom I don't consider particularly good players. That's because they've failed to pay any, or much, attention to one of the three criteria I mentioned earlier. Either they don't have a very good sense of groove, or they don't have particularly good tone, or they don't have a solid sense of how blues tonality works. Sometimes they've got lots of speed and "feeling" but they're audibly lacking on one or more of those three criteria.

Spencer Jarrett, the first time I heard him, didn't have very much speed, but he had groove, tone, and great sense of blues tonality. He'd spent time with Big Walter--not the records, the player. He was (and is) a good player.

Last Edited by kudzurunner on Jun 06, 2014 3:51 PM
Aussiesucker
1399 posts
Jun 06, 2014
4:44 PM
Timing. I often fail badly.

I also believe when playing with others that less is more. I remember having it drummed into me as a youngster to only speak when you are spoken to & to only speak when you have something to say. Otherwise shut up & listen. The player I most admire in this regard is Mickey Raphael.
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Frank
4472 posts
Jun 06, 2014
5:13 PM
Iv'e heard it said that the "only true test" of a blues harmonica players (actual abilities)... is his skill level at playing slow blues :)

Last Edited by Frank on Jun 06, 2014 5:15 PM
hooktool
139 posts
Jun 06, 2014
10:47 PM
If that's the case, Frank, then you've passed. I loved your tribute to Miles.

John
MalG
8 posts
Jun 07, 2014
12:45 AM
It's the ability to Improvise. Timing, Tone, Technique are all a given. A good player has to get these elements right within their own individual limitations. But for me it's the ability to improvise. A good player can improvise, take the harp somewhere and then bring it back to the fold.----------
SoulSurfer
Ted Burke
13 posts
Jun 07, 2014
6:52 AM
The ability to listen to what others are doing in a band situation is a key element as to whether you're a good player. Magic Dick, Fingers Taylor and Micky Raphael are great players not just for chops, technique and style, but also by their being a band member and not a third wheel waiting for his chance to show off.

Frank--Your tribute to Miles was splendid. Your phrasing is sublime and pays a nice tribute to the changes, and you dance lightly with the groove. Your feet barely touch the floor. Here's something I tried a few years ago:

Last Edited by Ted Burke on Jun 07, 2014 7:00 AM
Frank
4482 posts
Jun 07, 2014
10:41 AM
You sure ain't shy Ted - you "made love" to the camera as they say in show business...Nice angle too - felt like I could reach in there and grab a Cd off the shelf :) - You did Miles proud - he also could interject those rapid succession of notes to give the tune a little pick me up - Your good Ted, DAMN GOOD :)
walterharp
1401 posts
Jun 07, 2014
11:15 AM
what amazes me is how low the bar is for the general public and many other musicians to call harp good enough. Last night we hear a national touring folk act.. they have played austin city limits, prairie home companion, toured the world. Sublime vocals, masterly guitar, bass, banjo, mandolin... but damned if they did not play harmonica on one song... yeah notes were not wrong and they were on time, but my wife and the guitar player from my band said they should have left the harp at home.. Then on the way home listened to a bar band for a bit, again, guitar was good.. solid drumming and bass, but the harp was solidly between the beginning and intermediate levels Adam lists here.

I guess what amazes me is that if a guitar player did a solo as clumsily and simply without nuance or tone and stayed on the safe root notes so did not even have to follow the chord changes, most of the audience would know immediately and not be impressed.
Frank
4484 posts
Jun 07, 2014
11:29 AM
The harmonica gets a pass because it is akin to a freak show...Sorta like look at the monkey peeing on himself at the zoo - ain't that cute...

Seriously, next local jam you go to break-out the kazoo on stage and see if people don't go bananas...It's like "farting" with out the smell- it's funny.

And the harmonica is (cute) - girls are like, look at the grown man playing such a cute little squaky sounding thingy - ain't he special, Oh well :)
nacoran
7803 posts
Jun 07, 2014
9:15 PM
Frank, just explain the finer points of tongue blocking. We need to get that information out there to the female public. :)

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JustFuya
261 posts
Jun 07, 2014
10:26 PM
Never trust the musicians to rate themselves. I've seen bands turn the volume to zero and still spin a happy harpster off the stage. Everyone felt good. Smiles are as attractive as laughs.

You can get away with bad if you think you are good. You can't get away with good if you think you are bad. So there is that.

There is a way to rate yourself but you need accomplices. Either your band mates or the audience.

If there is a high five amongst the musicians then the audience doesn't count. It's unlikely you will be booed in that situation unless you are playing to the wrong crowd.

If you are playing in a dance bar and a few of the bobbing heads stop and look at your solo without throwing stuff at you, you might be good.

Who decides? I do. I know what I like and it's not everyone's taste. I appreciate masters of their instrument but I need 3 or 4 sets of entertainment. I have a hard time with a show that hangs on one virtuoso or one instrument.

So I'm good. Best I can do every time. But it's nice to have someone to 'Help Me'.

The Iceman
1720 posts
Jun 08, 2014
7:47 AM
Ted Burke and Frank.

Being a resident Miles "expert" (koff), I always enjoy when musicians do a Miles inspired tribute.

However, you both missed the point of Miles (IMO).

First of all, he very rarely used vibrato. Instead, he let the note fill out and hang in the air as an entity unto itself.

Secondly, he would pick the perfect note at the perfect time, choosing less notes and letting each one speak longer.

Thirdly, he would always start to move "outside the changes" with his note choices.

Lastly, you both did capture that fast flurry of notes between longer melodic line statement pretty nicely.

Here is an example of Miles' improv, first takes, for a French film.

wikipedia: "Ascenseur pour l'échafaud is an album by jazz musician Miles Davis. It was recorded at Le Poste Parisien Studio in Paris on December 4 and 5, 1957. The album features the musical cues for the 1958 Louis Malle film Ascenseur pour l'échafaud.

Jean-Paul Rappeneau, a jazz fan and Malle's assistant at the time, suggested asking Miles Davis to create the film's soundtrack – possibly inspired by the Modern Jazz Quartet's recording for Roger Vadim's Sait-on jamais (Lit: 'Does One Ever Know', released as: 'No Sun in Venice'), released a few months earlier in 1957.

Davis was booked to perform at the Club Saint-Germain in Paris for November 1957. Rappeneau introduced him to Malle, and Davis agreed to record the music after attending a private screening. On December 4, he brought his four sidemen to the recording studio without having had them prepare anything. Davis only gave the musicians a few rudimentary harmonic sequences he had assembled in his hotel room, and, once the plot was explained, the band improvised without any precomposed theme, while edited loops of the musically relevant film sequences were projected in the background.

Jazz Track, an album which contains the original ten songs from the soundtrack and three additional tracks later released on the 1958 Miles CD, received a 1960 Grammy nomination for Best Jazz Performance, Solo or Small Group.

From a musical point of view, the mood and the characteristics of the soundtrack immediately precede and introduce to Miles Davis's masterpieces Milestones and Kind of Blue."

Miles had the rhythm section play what is really just minor blues changes based on the harmonic minor scale.

Since this is Miles, he most likely sketched the scale out and told the rhythm section to play off the scale, which suggests chord changes i, ii b5, V b9 and variations/substitution related to these changes.

There is also a nice bridge suggesting major thrown in once in a while.

The whole thing is created to suggest a mood for this film noir.

Here is a very interesting video of the session (not sure if the sound and vid match up completely accurately for the duration, but you will get the point).



Listening to this album soundtrack is a great well of (sophisticated) third position playing ideas.



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The Iceman

Last Edited by The Iceman on Jun 08, 2014 7:59 AM
kudzurunner
4739 posts
Jun 08, 2014
8:50 AM
Nice clip, Larry! Whew. That is Miles squared, which is to say, Miles pared down to the bone. He slows time down to a trickle, and he owns it at that tempo. Woodshedding with that particular YT video would be the perfect antidote to the harmonica-ism that permeates a lot of mediocre harmonica playing: the assumption that a chugging in-and-out rhythm, a congenital busy-ness, is the natural and logical way to play blues harmonica.

I think it's hard to get Miles's sort of intensity on sustained notes when you're playing single blow notes on holes 4, 5, and 6. Or at least I've found it to be that way, cross or 3rd position. Playing those melodies in 3rd position--from 6 draw bend to 6 blow, for example--and sustaining that blow note and making it sound good, would be great training.
The Iceman
1721 posts
Jun 08, 2014
9:34 AM
The blues was ALWAYS at the heart and center of Mile's playing. As time went on, he strove to get back to that simplicity.

Almost every phase/comeback of his rebirth/direction change in music was firmly based on blues.

"Walkin" from 1954 was a big smash "hit" for him in the jazz community.

Next was "Kinda Blue" in 1959 changed the direction of jazz music.

After his foray into electronic and rock music and after his 5 year "retirement", there was finally "Star People" which became know as "New Blues" and was performed in concert during his last phase.

Listening to these recordings is a great lesson in developing improv. Also fascinating is how "New Blues" was played over the years.

Earlier New Blues



1986 New Blues



1988 New Blues


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The Iceman

Last Edited by The Iceman on Jun 08, 2014 9:41 AM
Ugly Bones Ryan
81 posts
Jun 08, 2014
9:55 AM
You can play chords, individual notes, bend, you can alternate between puckering and tongue blocking,and you don't just blow and draw with all your might.
Ted Burke
15 posts
Jun 08, 2014
10:15 AM
Iceman, I missed nothing about Miles Davis and the point of the clip wasn't to imitate his style, but rather show that his genius influenced the way I play ,to a degree. I'm afraid you're the one who missed the point. It's a Davis-like frame work with me bending My style to his groove. The lecture on Miles is, of course, uncalled for. I am nearly sixty two years old and have been listening closely to MD for over 40 years; I have the same records,biographies and book marked websites you do. Frank, by the way, did a lovely take on Miles, HIS take, not yours. That's the beauty of it, and MD would have insisted that Frank do his own thing in the solo or else pack it in. That's Miles Davis for you.
The Iceman
1722 posts
Jun 08, 2014
10:26 AM
Ted...when I say (IMO), that means in my opinion.

You may disagree with my opinion, but don't get angry and defensive over it.

When one posts examples on this list, one opens oneself up to criticism and other opinions - both positive and negative.

My posting was in the hope that others will become curious/interested/influenced/inspired in Miles and his musical approach, kinda like Kudzu did.

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The Iceman
Kingley
3589 posts
Jun 08, 2014
10:58 AM
"Are you a "GOOD" harmonica player - ?"
That's not for me to judge. That's for others to decide.

"What are the most important ingredients of someone who you would consider a GOOD harp player?"
Quite simply someone who can play in the service of the song.

"Why were they GOOD in your opinion, can you put your finger on it?"
They played in the service of the song.

"Can you please elaborate a bit on your views of what makes a harp player "GOOD" ?"
Well apart from being able to play in the service of the song. It's also nice if they have good tone, interesting phrasing and know when not to play. All those things though are icing on the cake. The most important thing is being able to play in the service of the song.

That of course is just my opinion on it all.

Last Edited by Kingley on Jun 08, 2014 10:58 AM
John95683
158 posts
Jun 08, 2014
12:26 PM
Interesting question. I think innate musical ability is very important. After four years, I can play single notes, bend notes fairly well, know the blues scale, and understand the basic 12 bar blues format. I play in blues jams regularly and do OK, but I don't think any decent blues harp player would consider me "good". I don't think I will ever become a good blues player. Why? I don't have much musical ability. My ear and timing stink.

On the other hand, I can play a lot of song melodies, like Scarborough Fair, Country Roads, Georgia, and so forth. I played Amazing Grace at a friend's memorial service, and everyone said that I did a great job. So, according to most people, I am a 'good player",because I can play recognizable songs fairly well.

It all depends on the audience, I think.

It
Ted Burke
16 posts
Jun 08, 2014
12:34 PM
Iceman: Well, we disagree , but what was actually annoying was that you presume to give a lecture about how Miles played. It's a move of an insecure autodidact; it would have been more helpful and interesting if you 'd actually critiqued the application of my style to a Miles Davis framework rather than natter on the finer points of the Master's singularly brillant style, with the implicit that those wishing to pay tribute to Davis ought to do it exactly as would and not vary from the old recordings. That suggestions just mummifies the man and his music; as a jazz afficianado, you should realize that change is the essence of improvisation. The reason I don't care for Wynton Marsalis is that he is stylistically too beholden to MD for tone, phrasing, note choice; the approach is merely a matter of demonstrating technical excellence,not the creation of an original , personal solo inspired from other sources. The best Miles Davis Tribute I have come across is The Miles Davis Tribute band featuring all original members of various MD groups--Hancock, Williams, Ron Carter,Shorter--which featured Wallace Roney as the featured trumpeter. Roney is a firebrand player, fast, precise, melodic, bold in tone and fluid in ideas and liquid in his phrasing. He was not shy about maintaining his Hubbard-influenced virtuosity, the absolute point of being an improvisor in jazz was to bring your style, your personality to the material that is brought to you and adjust your style to fit the song. Roney does this beautifully; his solo has its traces of Davis , evidenced in tone and the dynamics, but Roney shows that he is his own man. This is the kind of tribute MD would prefer , in my opinion, a performance of thanks to a genius from a soloist who now reveals what the Master's influence empowered him to become as a musician.

The point is that I don't think we need to deify the Music of Miles to the point that performing of his music must be done to some standard Davis himself would have objected to. His music is not a museum piece, Things in museums are dead,and jazz is a living thing, and living things respond to the changes that life brings them.

Last Edited by Ted Burke on Jun 08, 2014 12:57 PM
JustFuya
264 posts
Jun 08, 2014
12:35 PM
@Iceman - You nailed it: "Play to please yourself."

The woodshed has its rewards. If you please others, more power to ya. You can share your gift if you are so inclined. There are no obligations. It's good therapy in any case.

If you do care to share there will be critiques and comments; positive and negative. Dwell on one or the other and you have missed the target.
The Iceman
1724 posts
Jun 08, 2014
2:35 PM
TedB sez "Iceman: Well, we disagree , but what was actually annoying was that you presume to give a lecture about how Miles played. It's a move of an insecure autodidact; it would have been more helpful and interesting if you 'd actually critiqued the application of my style to a Miles Davis framework rather than natter on the finer points of the Master's singularly brillant style, with the implicit that those wishing to pay tribute to Davis ought to do it exactly as would and not vary from the old recordings."

Perhaps you should have stopped at "well, we disagree".

Aren't your comments that follow: "annoying that you presume to give a lecture" and "It's a move of an insecure autodidact" bordering on direct insult/attack against another forum member, which, as I understand, is against the forum creed?

What follows? "it would have been more helpful and interesting if you 'd actually critiqued the application of my style to a Miles Davis framework rather than natter on the finer points of the Master's singularly brillant style"

Now you are telling me what would be best, kinda like a teacher critiquing his student's essay, as well as "you'ing" me.

" with the implicit that those wishing to pay tribute to Davis ought to do it exactly as would and not vary from the old recordings"

and finally, the ol' incorrectly drawing of conclusion of my statement and where I am coming from.

Aside from these vituperations, I enjoyed the rest of your personal appraisals, which were judiciously espoused.

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The Iceman

Last Edited by The Iceman on Jun 08, 2014 2:35 PM
garry
518 posts
Jun 08, 2014
2:57 PM
i think you've passed the threshold into "good" when a song sounds better because you played on than if you had not. during my development as a player, there were many times when kind friends would invite me to sit in on a song or two. it was fun, and we (and the crowd) usually enjoyed it, but i always felt guilty because it was clear to me that they would've sounded better without me. at a certain point that began to change, and instead of just being kind to the newbie, i get invited up because they like playing with me and it makes the song better. it's a nice place to me.

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