Sherwin
163 posts
May 27, 2014
8:02 PM
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Have you ever dreamt of producing your very own harmonicas?
If so please admit it and tell about it.
I have discussed the idea with a friend of mine who teaches tool and die making.
Tooling up to make a single key of harmonica is quite an ordeal but doable for a serious hobbyist. Producing the standard 12 keys adds to the complexity....so many reeds to profile and punch....admittedly i haven't entirely worked out how to produce reeds from start to finish.
This whole thing is a vanity project and not a money making proposition, but I plan to do it in the next five years, though it may have to wait 'till I retire.
Michael
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Mirco
172 posts
May 27, 2014
9:11 PM
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I dream of making a harmonica/ gas mask hybrid that we can send to our soldiers overseas. It is bascially a gas mask, but with a harmonica built into it so that they can play music while not breathing poision. It will make things a lot more cheerful when they have to wear gas masks. Of course, they would be set up for overblows OOTB.
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Sherwin
164 posts
May 27, 2014
9:21 PM
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Bring them back home instead :)
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boris_plotnikov
968 posts
May 28, 2014
12:27 AM
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Yes, of course. I constantly see thing which can make harmonica better. E.g. reedplates with narrower slot tolerance (instead of weird embossing!), another reed profiles, another reed lenght (I think harps lower than Bb must have at least a bit longer reeds, while harps higher than B must have a bit shorter reeds), another reedplate thickness (thicker reedplates for low reeds, thinner for high reeds), another comb chamber volume (thinner comb, narrower chambers).
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nacoran
7782 posts
May 28, 2014
1:29 AM
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I've tinkered with adding magnets to the combs so the covers are latched on without screws, and have some crazy ideas for radical different ideas, but I just don't have the technical skill to turn ideas into products at the level my imagination functions.
I have, however, tried to shop some rough ideas around, and have thought, if I could find suppliers, of offering oddball non-harmonica harmonica things, with the least weird being light up covers going right on up the crazy list to harmonica spinners and tee shirts. I've looked into some crazy materials that could be used. I was very interested in memory metals and liquid metals. I even contacted the company that makes liquid metal and inquired what it would cost to make a reed (something in the process makes it very difficult to engineer after the casting, so they do everything in house. They didn't think it could be done at an appropriate price point, but the metal has some spring like qualities that would be fun to hear in a reed.
I've tried a couple times to wrap my brain around CAD to see if I could print up some comb prototypes, but CAD hurts my brain.
One other possibility I've thought of is a stainless reed plate to go with the stainless covers- them my magnetic comb could hold the whole harp together with no screws at all.
I'd call them Hudson River Harmonicas (I live near the Hudson and I like the ring of it.) I'd name the models after local towns- The New Yorker (a stylish harp with response for playing jazz), The Adirondack, a rugged harp for playing bluegrass, The Erie, perfect for playing folk, the Buffalo, a harp designed to not freeze to your lips in cold weather, the North Country, the Downstate, the Upstate, the Sunken River Blues Harp...
But I don't spend any time thinking about those sorts of things... lol.. :)
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Nate
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First Post- May 8, 2009
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Sherwin
165 posts
May 28, 2014
1:54 PM
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I might even sell the enterprise to Hohner down the road, but I'd hold out for as long as possible! ;)
Why fight it?
Michael
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Frank
4389 posts
May 28, 2014
3:42 PM
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I'm in the process of making one with the top cover plate on backwards... it will act as a condiment holder for ketchup as well as other goodies that may come in handy while eating a hot dog - I'm going to pitch the ideal to Seydel if Suzuki does'nt bite first...Hohner made a low ball offer, the nerve :)
Last Edited by Frank on May 28, 2014 4:02 PM
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arzajac
1386 posts
May 28, 2014
5:49 PM
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If you crowdsource, I'd kick in a few bucks....
If you keep it small and simple, you may have more success than previous attempts. For example, you can name your first model the "B-Real" instead of a more Radical name!
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Custom overblow harps. Harmonica service and repair.
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florida-trader
492 posts
May 28, 2014
6:14 PM
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Interesting topic. Yes,I have thought about making my own brand harmonicas. I have been making combs several years so I pretty much have that licked. I don't think covers would be very difficult. My involvement with the SUB-30 and the valve plate I recently introduced was the byproduct of a lot of R&D. The real challenge is making reed plates. It would be a very expensive proposition to make your own reed plates from scratch. But it is doable. However, if you look at the guys who currently come the closest to "making their own harps" - guys like Anthony Danneker, Martin Brodeur - they use Hohner reed plates. And the newest entry to this arena, Yonberg, uses Seydel reed plates. But like I said, it is doable.
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Tom Halchak
www.BlueMoonHarmonicas.com
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Frank
4393 posts
May 28, 2014
6:18 PM
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repeat post deleted by author
Last Edited by Frank on May 29, 2014 2:30 AM
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STME58
847 posts
May 28, 2014
10:01 PM
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If I were to seriously consider this I would look at fine blanking the comb to get the tighter tolerances Boris mentioned. The reeds would be coined or a process of extrusion/coining similar to how a beer can is made. Getting tight control of the alloy and rolling process of the incoming coil stock would also be a priority. Tooling costs for this are probably too high to ever recover the investment selling the resulting harps though.
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harmonicanick
2166 posts
May 29, 2014
1:27 AM
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I think harps should be used as a nursing aid.
Personally I want to have an A harp stuck in my mouth when I am on the death bed so my last breath (which in most cases is an inhalation, will be blue third!!
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Ugly Bones Ryan
74 posts
May 29, 2014
3:09 PM
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I dreamed of making a harp exactly like the Special 20 but with bigger holes, opened brass cover plates, rounded edges,compromise tuning more like the Crossover, no support beam in the middle, and side vents. Then Hohner released that Rocket which is almost the same thing.
Last Edited by Ugly Bones Ryan on May 29, 2014 3:10 PM
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HawkeyeKane
2529 posts
May 29, 2014
3:56 PM
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I'd love to make one with a plastic comb and wood coverplates. Then, I'd try and figure out a way to mount single coil or humbucking pickups over each reed. I know it's been attempted, and Jim Anataki has his optical pickup system, but still I'd like to try my hand at it.
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Hawkeye Kane - Hipbone Sam
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walterharp
1390 posts
May 29, 2014
8:02 PM
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I know, you could call it a B radical! :-)
just kidding.
Why not put a single pick up in each chamber, it could serve for both draw and blow reed? though who knows what the sympathetic reed thing on bends would do? but who knows what it would do with pickups on the outside of each reed either?
I proposed on a different thread, and have seen others suggesting 3d printing as a possible. There is no real reason reed plates need to be brass. Each reed end could be well sealed in complete plastic cover and reed slots very tight. only a matter of time...
here is the discussion
http://www.modernbluesharmonica.com/board/board_topic/5560960/5262813.htm
Last Edited by walterharp on May 29, 2014 8:06 PM
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Martin
671 posts
May 30, 2014
8:32 AM
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Perhaps a harmonica that lasts?
Could cost a bit of course but I´d be willing to fork up.
Or -- if it won´t last, perhaps one where you could change individual reeds, while not being an artisan?
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nacoran
7790 posts
May 30, 2014
12:10 PM
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Martin, the Harrison used screws to hold the reeds on. The trick wouldn't be to make a reed that is easy for someone to just swap with no skill, but to figure out a way to make them quickly at the factory.
I've wondered, for reed alignment, if you were using a CNC machine, if you could make a slot on the reed plate that the 'rivet' end of the harp could dip into.
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Nate
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HarpNinja
3888 posts
May 30, 2014
12:25 PM
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Recessed reeds into the reedplates would be cool - might make reed switching easy?
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Mike
My Website
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Aussiesucker
1396 posts
May 30, 2014
2:37 PM
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HARPOLDIE’S YOUTUBE
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Frank
4418 posts
May 30, 2014
2:59 PM
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You squealed that 10 overdraw, probably more of an em brochure problem then anything else - I tried one of your "naked harmonicas" at NAMM and all overblows and draws were BAM - right there...
I can vouch these harps are worth the price, I think their a couple grand? You get what you pay for! If you want a harp that plays itself - then play the naked harmonica -it is waaaaay better the the sub 30 and there is zero maintenance and it plays like butter, plus the tone is perfect... you heard Aussiesucker - amazing sound :)
Last Edited by Frank on May 30, 2014 3:00 PM
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Sherwin
167 posts
Jun 01, 2014
10:04 AM
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@boris, yep, tighter tolerances, but only just a tiny bit
@ Tom, gee, the plates are I understand relatively straightforward to make......the key is clearance between male and female parts of the die, there is an 'ideal clearance' that changes with thickness of reed plate stock chosen.
Reed manufacture for me seems to be the fiddlyest part of the whole business, though I think I have it mostly figured out, that is I think I understand what steps on what machine in what order would be required to make reeds of 'ONE PITCH', nineteen others to make.
No plans to include: pickups of any kind, magnets flashing lights, condiments, spices, razor blades and shaving cream, etc. etc.
I would like to make a harp that plays, feels, and sounds really good, two comb options, and maybe two cover plate options( vented,non vented)......rivets for fastening reeds, hell they work!
More of a Volvo all wheel drive than an early Volkswagen Beetle kind of a harp if you dig what I'm sayin'
That's my little dream..............Michael
P.S. Fun to hear of others' plans/ideas....thanks!
Last Edited by Sherwin on Jun 01, 2014 10:06 AM
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catochan
37 posts
Jun 01, 2014
10:28 AM
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Do it!
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rockmonkeyguitars
94 posts
Jun 01, 2014
1:28 PM
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@HawkeyeKane I'm not sure if you were joking about the pickup comment or not but I'm going to respond as if you were serious.
A magnetic pickup (single coil or humbucker guitar pickups) wouldn't work well on harp no matter what you did. Even if the reeds were made of a material with a magnetic attraction there is an issue with the direct reeds vibrate vs how the pickup would have to be mounted.
A magnetic pickup only generates signal when something crosses it's path. Getting closer and then further away isn't enough. This is why magnetic pickups are not commonly used on instruments that are played with a bow. Bowed instruments have strings that bounce up and down and have very little side to side movement so magnetic pickups don't sense the string vibrations. On harmonica it's even worse because there NO side to side movement from the reed.
The only way to get the pickup to hear the reed vibration would be to mount one at the back of the harmonica facing the ends of the blow reeds and another one at the front of the harmonica facing the ends of the draw reeds. This would mean the pickup for the draw reeds would be in your mouth which isn't gonna work. Or you could make little pickups that mount in a machined slots in the reed plates next to each reed. This however, would cause air leaks and phase problems as well as putting the magnets very close to the reeds inhibiting reed movement.
Transducer pickups would work, but that has been done before
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hooktool
135 posts
Jun 01, 2014
9:04 PM
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The magnetic pickups have to have ferrous metal in the string/reed/whatever. Brass etc won't induce a current. Seydel steel reed harps would work if you could get it mounted where the distance from reed to pickup is optimal-not to far from the reed.
Here is a great paper written by Hartley Peavy It covers a lot, and has many drawings, too.
I've been studying pickups, gonna wind some. :)
John
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rockmonkeyguitars
95 posts
Jun 02, 2014
1:14 AM
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^The big issue is less about distance from the reed and more about making the reed cross the top of the pole instead of moving closer and the further without crossing. If it's just getting closer and further it's not generating enough signal to use.
I'd like to see the paper you are talking about but you seem to have not included the url. I do have been studying pickups and have been winding them as my only means of income for around 10 years.
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hooktool
137 posts
Jun 02, 2014
12:13 PM
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Sorry to leave that out. I understand what you are saying and it makes sense. It would still need steel reeds. I'm not really sure why anyone would want one with all the mic choices we have, and it would have to add considerably to the size.
I don't pretend any great knowledge or expertise, and appreciate that you do have that knowledge. Maybe I could pick your brain sometime. Can I see your work somewhere?
Here's the link: http://peavey.com/support/technotes/hartley/chapter_5.pdf
John
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HawkeyeKane
2531 posts
Jun 02, 2014
12:24 PM
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I wondered about the brass/steel issue. Thanks for clarifying on that.
And I'm guessing piezo pickups would be a bust as well since they need to be in contact with the vibrating object. Unless you could mount the piezos on the reed rivets somehow....
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Hawkeye Kane - Hipbone Sam
Last Edited by HawkeyeKane on Jun 02, 2014 12:29 PM
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florida-trader
494 posts
Jun 03, 2014
12:17 PM
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Sherwin. Stamping reed plates may or may not be so straight forward. Number one, fine blanking is definitely the way to go. Anything less would require a lot of finishing work to get the slots clean enough to use. The other thing that may not be so straight forward is the cost. You have to get a stamp made and that is expensive. So you can't possibly justify it unless you are willing to commit to making lots of reed plates - we're talking thousands in order to make it cost effective. Then you have to be able to move them. There is a reason why there are only a handful of companies who are currently making high quality reed plates.
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Tom Halchak
www.BlueMoonHarmonicas.com
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isaacullah
2787 posts
Jun 03, 2014
12:40 PM
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One could use an electrostatic (capacitive) pickup on brass reeds just fine. In fact, it's been done: http://www.google.com/patents/US3322875. The main benefit of using a magnetic./electrostatic/laser pickup is that they are either highly feedback resistant or totally immune to feedback, which means you could throw the harp sound through all sorts of crazy death metal distortions and ring modulators and crap to make insane sounds with out worrying about that feedback monster... You could also probably use a whole new world of amps that don't work well with mics. Imagine what the harp would sound like through a huge Marshall or Hiwatt stack?
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HawkeyeKane
2533 posts
Jun 03, 2014
1:06 PM
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isaac, did that patent ever make it into production by anyone? I'm curious to see the inner workings of one.
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Hawkeye Kane - Hipbone Sam
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Sherwin
169 posts
Jun 03, 2014
1:24 PM
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Tom, will talk to that tool and die maker friend of mine, I don't remember what he called the method he proposed for making reed plates.........he did tell me hobbing would probably not be the way to go, but that it would work, just not well.
Michael
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JustFuya
249 posts
Jun 03, 2014
1:46 PM
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I think they are done on a progressive punch/die and while the tooling is expensive it's not nearly as high as some of the prices mentioned here. Less than 20 years ago it would cost around 10k for 3 hits.
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florida-trader
495 posts
Jun 03, 2014
3:49 PM
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@JustFuya - not that you are disagreeing or being argumentative - so that would mean your first set of reed plates would cost $10,000 plus the material cost (let's say $10). If you make two sets of plates your cost would be $10,020 which would cut your cost per plate in half to "only" $5,010 each. If you make 10 sets you further reduce your cost to only $1,010 each ..... and so on. You would have to make 1,000 to get your cost down to $20 each. It is doable but to make it a viable business venture you have to do it on a very large scale.
Tom Halchak
www.BlueMoonHarmonicas.com
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STME58
859 posts
Jun 03, 2014
4:30 PM
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I would expect that the tooling used is stamping, either single stations or progressive dies. I was wondering which would produce a better reed plate.
1. Stamping, with its short land, and slot widening away from the stamped side,
or
2. Fine blanking, with a smooth even side wall all the way down the slot.
Either one will require a consistent quality, in both thickness and alloy, of coiled brass to be fed into the process. I can tell you from experience that is hard to get from suppliers even if you are buying enough material to make 100K pieces per month.
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JustFuya
250 posts
Jun 03, 2014
5:04 PM
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@florida-trader - my main purpose was to clarify the name of process. No argument intended here and I love the discussion.
In a former life, a customer would give me a print for a part (or an example to reverse engineer). We would punch it on a turret press to work out any bugs in the design and continue to do it in that manner if the runs were small quantity.
If we saw the potential for say, a quantity of 10,000 parts, we would take it upon ourselves to design and build a progressive punch/die in order to make a part that went thru the shop faster & cheaper.
On the turret we charged .10 per hit. I figure a reed plate would require at least 29 hits. So that's $2.90 plus the material and deburring (probably tumble). Flattening would also add cost as would the cover groove. And tapping.
On a progressive setup it would maybe take 3 hits (@.10/per), give or take 1 hit. That's a huge savings in the long run and the rivet holes would likely be better aligned to the slot. It would likely also produce a flatter part.
If I was to start this venture, I would first draw up a print of the plates with applicable tolerances (tight for the hole locations and sizes). Then I would get quotes (free) from a few precision sheet metal companies with reputations for quality.
EDIT: I had omitted cover plate clearance holes and actual reed plate mounting holes (threaded on one or both sides). These are the kind of mistakes that would have killed me in the business.
Last Edited by JustFuya on Jun 03, 2014 6:20 PM
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JustFuya
251 posts
Jun 03, 2014
6:19 PM
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@Sherwin - I agree that the reeds themselves, especially the weighted ones, would be the trickiest part. It looks to me like they are ground and not always finely. I assume there is a reason for the perpendicular grain. (Reed movement?) I found a patent for a parallel grinding process but I don't know if it was ever employed. It is certainly an issue.
As far as punch die clearance, it would be easy to measure what Hohner is using. If you measure the width of the slot at the surface of both sides of a plate and divide the difference by 2 you have the clearance they are using. I imagine it's around .003 but I'm guessing.
It's that clearance that necessitates two tools for what is basically a mirror image part that might be flipped in less demanding applications. Cross sections of punched holes are basically trapezoids.
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STME58
861 posts
Jun 03, 2014
10:00 PM
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If you watch the Hohner video on the reed milling process it becomes apparent why they are milled crosswise. It is just a lot easier process to set up and control.
I think coining the reads would be the way to go if you had an unlimited tooling budget. Once you dialed in the tooling and the process you would get a very consistent and durable reed.
If you want to see and example of precise tooling and processing, take a look at a beer can the next time you have one in your hand. The side walls are as thin a possible to save cost, a very small error will cause a spot that is too thin to hold the pressure. The cut for the pop top has to be just right, too deep and it will blow open, not deep enough and you cant open it. Coors bought some very expensive inspection equipment to help them developed the tools to do this. They did not use the inspection equipment full time so they would contract with people who needed things inspected. In the 90's if I needed something precisely measured, I would have it sent to Coors inspection services. I think a similar process could be adapted to harmonica reeds, of course to be economically feasible reeds would have to be as common as beer cans?
Last Edited by STME58 on Jun 03, 2014 10:02 PM
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florida-trader
497 posts
Jun 04, 2014
10:18 AM
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@ STME58 - what you have described is pretty much the relationship I have been able to cultivate with virtually all of my vendors. It is more or less a labor of love for all of us (me more than them). It is not the mot profitable business in the world but it is fun enough for all of us that we do it anyway.
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Tom Halchak
www.BlueMoonHarmonicas.com
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STME58
864 posts
Jun 04, 2014
11:37 AM
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". It is not the mot profitable business in the world but it is fun enough for all of us that we do it anyway."
That sounds a lot like playing the harmonica!
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JustFuya
253 posts
Jun 04, 2014
2:15 PM
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@STME58 - Could you share the link to the reed milling video. A while back I rounded up 6 or 7 bookmarks on harp mfg and this process is the only one that remains a complete mystery to me. I've seen reed punching but not the stock milling.
BTW, this is simply a mental exercise for me.
Thanks
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STME58
865 posts
Jun 04, 2014
3:35 PM
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The link harpwrench provided shows the cutting process . I cant quite tell what kind of a cutter this is.
This shows the Seydel process. It looks like a horizontal axis mill, kind of like a planer, that the brass is run under before it is stamped into reeds.
Seydel
It looks like Tombo wraps the reed brass around a large cylinder and cuts it on a lathe.
Tombo
I can not find the Hohner video I had seen before. As I recall correctly it was similar to the Seydel process but has a Vertical axis Milling cutter.
Last Edited by STME58 on Jun 04, 2014 3:41 PM
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JustFuya
254 posts
Jun 04, 2014
4:36 PM
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Thanks for the links everyone. I didn't realize that they milled(?) and punched at the same time. It makes more sense than the nightmare I had pictured.
Here's an old clip. I don't recognize the harp.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Wmrz8BM-4M
There are a lot of pinch points on that old machinery.
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nacoran
7795 posts
Jun 04, 2014
5:03 PM
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What would happen if you milled a comb with the tolerances of a reed plate, drilled screw holes and mounted reeds?
I imagine it might, aside from being very airtight, create some weird effects. I think to test it, you'd start with a comb cut to those dimensions, and still use reed plates. I guess what I'm getting at is what effect does the shape of the reed chamber have on the sound?
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Nate
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barbequebob
2583 posts
Jun 05, 2014
10:52 AM
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Even with robotics being used today, that kind of precision you're only gonna get realistically from a top of the line customizer because, the huge unfortunate reality check is that for manufacturers to be that kind of precise, it would be far too costly just in terms of labor alone to pull if off successfully and to do that what ad very significant cost to the product that the consumer will HAVE to pay for.
I know some of the chromatic customizers spend tons of time when they're doing customizing of combs on the chambers because they definitely do have an effect on the sound, and from what I've read about over the years, much of that work was done in the top octave of a chromatic, partially to offset the need of having windsaver valves in the top octave.
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Boston, MA
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