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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
BGT: Grooves
BGT: Grooves
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Mirco
159 posts
May 07, 2014
4:04 PM
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I am planning to download Jimi Lee's Essential Grooves tracks, so I can get used to playing in different grooves. When I go out to a jam, how much knowledge can I generally count on the band having? Do jammers generally know what is meant by a, say, reverse shuffle or a box groove? I guess I ask because I don't know anything about how the rhythm section trains. Will they know all those grooves?
What grooves should I prioritize learning? Of course, I want to learn them all, but what should be the first ones?
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nacoran
7723 posts
May 07, 2014
6:30 PM
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My guess is you'll get some people who will know them, and lots who won't. If you can give them a sample- shave and a haircut, two bits, most of them with get it.
Which reminds me, wasn't there a video a while back on articulations to different famous beats?
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Nate
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First Post- May 8, 2009
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Mirco
160 posts
May 07, 2014
8:27 PM
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David Barrett has some stuff on his site. I guess that maybe the real value is not when I'm a bandleader, but maybe when I'm comping. Just being familiar with the different grooves and ready to improvise in any of them.
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Jehosaphat
741 posts
May 07, 2014
9:26 PM
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I have the Jimi lee tracks.They are very good and worth the money imo.
But it is rare to find any musos' here that understand his classifications,i just get a blank stare most times.
The few who do seem to be Bassists.
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Joe_L
2467 posts
May 07, 2014
10:18 PM
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At a jam, not likely. Most pros will know. It is far more important to know a song with that groove as most really good players will be familiar with the tune than the groove name.
For example, if you are in Chicago and you are playing a box shuffle, more people will know the difference between a Buddy Guy style box and an Otis Rush style box. In CA, people use ascending and descending. I have to have them play a bit of it, because I don't refer to it that way.
Unless you are leading the band, it is far more important to listen and play accordingly.
Where you are at, it is far not important to learn the language, than to develop your own voice. That's means listen to records. Legendary records and not backing tracks. The time to improvise will come. Until you know what to play, don't waste your time with backing tracks.
Early on, it's more important to focus on tone, phrasing and developing a musical vocabulary. If you want to be taken seriously, don't minimize this.
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The Blues Photo Gallery
Last Edited by Joe_L on May 07, 2014 10:41 PM
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Mirco
162 posts
May 07, 2014
10:58 PM
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I've been taking instruction from David Barrett. David recommends lifting riffs from his study songs and improvising with them to jam tracks. I've been using the jam tracks he supplies, but I think I'll get the Jimi Lee ones to work with, also.
That way, I'll develop a musical vocabulary and also get acclimated to different grooves. If they turn up while I'm onstage.
I understand that maybe many musicians won't know the terms for these grooves, but at least I'll be somewhat familiar with the sounds.
Thanks!
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barbequebob
2542 posts
May 08, 2014
10:13 AM
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One very important thing to NEVER forget when learning about groove is to make sure you take the time to get your own time straight because far too often, the average player who isn't a pro will often have horrible time and if the time is awful, the groove, regardless of what type it is, is ALWAYS gonna be awful.\
Joe L has is it absolutely right about jams because unless you're in a jam where you see tons of real pros participating in them, the average jammer can NEVER be counted upon to know much of anything about groove at all.
What Jehosphat says about bass players understanding grooves generally also applies to drummers as well but having REAL knowledge about time and groove, and when the time comes when you have to call out the groove and count out the time for the groove, here's also where getting your own time straight becomes EXTREMELY important and that will set you apart from most jammers and the more you learn, the better prepared you're gonna be.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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jpmcbride
50 posts
May 08, 2014
12:46 PM
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Ronnie Shellist told me he learned to play a bunch of bass lines on the harmonica so he could play them for the rhythm section in a pick-up band or jam situation to let them know what he wanted. Great idea!
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Jim McBride
www.bottleoblues.com
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barbequebob
2545 posts
May 08, 2014
12:58 PM
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That's something I've been doing for a good 20 years. I also explain it it like this way for example, using the bass line from Everything's Gonna Be Alright, 1-8-7-5.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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Joe_L
2468 posts
May 08, 2014
6:29 PM
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David's advice is very good advice. However, I can tell you that if you force licks onto a groove where it doesn't fit, it's going to sound forced and not very natural. You have to play what fits. The only way a person is going to know what fits is if you listen to a lot of music and listen to what other players do and more importantly do not do.
To answer your original question, I would suggest asking David, since you're paying him. He will know. If you're down at the School of the Blues and Frank is around, talk to him. He's been gigging for years.
If your goal is to play with other musicians at jams, you need to be versatile, unless you have control over who you do and don't get to play with.
We go to the same places. We play with some of the same people. You tell me. What do people play? If you're going to get on stage with those people, you need to be prepared to play what they play.
When you are at Aki's jam, what are people playing? If you don't know, ask them. Most of the people there are very approachable. How does that compare with Sid Morris' jam that we were at on Sunday afternoon?
Hell, we played together on Sunday. How comfortable did you feel? Those were pretty basic grooves. I can tell you what they were supposed to be. I can also tell you that they did not go as they were supposed to go. It's important to be flexible and adapt.
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The Blues Photo Gallery
Last Edited by Joe_L on May 08, 2014 6:31 PM
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Mirco
163 posts
May 08, 2014
9:15 PM
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Thanks, everyone. You guys are the best.
Joe, I can say that I am generally uncomfortable with anything outside of a standard shuffle (maybe okay with an 8 bar blues). I thought having different tracks would be good just for the purpose of learning the different grooves and experimenting a bit, so I'm not completely lost. It was real nice of you to invite me up on stage, and fun, too. But I wish I was more competent.
Good tip about learning bass lines so I can demonstrate to a band. But maybe it's too much too soon. I'll work on active listening and try to listen to good examples of different grooves.
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