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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! > Thinning a Note
Thinning a Note
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wolfkristiansen
272 posts
Mar 29, 2014
9:55 AM
Thinning a Note

My father was a classically trained opera singer.

With no microphone, he filled any hall or church in which he sang, because he had been taught how to project. His heroes were Beniamino Gigli, Jussi Björling and Enrico Caruso. Look them up one day if you like singers. They all had "tone" (pipes).

As I grew up, my father talked to me about chest tones, head tones and other techniques classical singers utilized as they sang. I didn't pay attention to this as a child, nor as a teen, because it meant nothing to me at that time.

He talked about another thing that stayed with me, though. He called it "thinning a note".

He was proud of his ability to fill a room with his voice. He was equally proud of his ability to gradually decrease its volume to a mere whisper while still keeping the note true and pure. I heard him do it many times in concert. With his voice alone, he did what a recording engineer would call a "slow fade".

So-- how does this relate to harmonica? Because tonight, as I played acoustically at home, I tried do a slow fade (thin a note) with my harmonica. It didn't happen. At a certain point, the note suddenly went from quiet to absent. I couldn't thin it out indefinitely. I concluded that, at some point, as your breath decreases, a reed will cease vibrating entirely, but that cessation occurs well above our hearing threshold.

I don't know if it's important to anyone else to be able to "thin a note". I'd like to be able to do it, especially in an acoustic setting.

I play Special 20s with no tweaks. I suspect gapping might help the reeds vibrate for a longer time as my breath decreases, but am open to suggestions. I really don't like a note suddenly quitting on me as I blow or draw gently.

Cheers,

wolf kristiansen
Frank
4090 posts
Mar 29, 2014
12:53 PM
Yeah that one is often overlooked by amateur's like myself - also loud/soft dynamic sensibilities :)
STME58
706 posts
Mar 29, 2014
12:58 PM
Playing softly with any instrument is one of the most difficult things to do. I think this is a joke from the creator, the worse you are, the louder you play!

To play softly on a wind instrument you need to have good air support. This different from blowing hard. There are many mental pictures used to facilitate the effect but you can hear it when you get it right. I still do what my high school band director recommended. I imagine a marble in my belly button and keep the muscles tight to keep it from falling out. If our tone went to hell in the soft section, my band director would say, "there are marbles all over the floor!"

I have found the same technique that helps me keep the tone going softly on a trombone also works for the harmonica.
Kingley
3558 posts
Mar 29, 2014
1:04 PM
Wolf I think that you might find a well gapped harp with some light embossing would help a lot. A well set up harp will respond to the lightest breath and will give you a good dynamic range. I'd suggest you take one of your older harps and trying those things on it. You might be surprised how well they can respond. Check out Joe Spiers gapping videos on YouTube and Dave Paynes videos on embossing. I use a small socket from my motorcycle tool kit to emboss with.
Frank
4091 posts
Mar 29, 2014
1:51 PM
Here is a tune I made up on the spot I'm practicing playing lightly but you would never know it with the amp making it sound much much louder then it is - acoustically you would of hardly heard it :)

STME58
707 posts
Mar 29, 2014
3:44 PM
The electronics in some ways make acoustic dynamics a moot point. Frank says he is playing softly but we just have to take his word as what we hear has so many knobs between the original sound and what comes out the
computer speaker. It's not like having 4 horns playing a chord softly enough so that the unamplified flute can be heard over the horns.

I think there is a lot of skill and control that can only be learned by playing softly though. It is part of mastering an instrument, and in my opinion will serve you well in spite of the fact you can control you volume with a knob on mic. I may just be showing my bias as a primarily acoustic musician though.

Frank, what differences do you notice between playing louder with less amplification and playing softly but letting the electronics bring up the volume. I don't do much amplified, so I am curious.
DukeBerryman
309 posts
Mar 29, 2014
4:22 PM
Slightly off topic, but I found that the sound of the delay gives the perception of volume. I am careful to always maintain the same volume coming out of my amp when I practice, but adding the delay - the only effect I use - always makes it seem "louder". I think this is part of the reason it is such an effective special effect. I think humans will always perceive something with an echo as being loud.
STME58
708 posts
Mar 29, 2014
4:40 PM
@DukeBerryman, my favorite places to practice have a good natural reverberation, a stairwell, under a concrete bridge, a subway station. My very favorite is a large stairwell in a subway station that has about a 4 second reverberation time. I agree that the echo makes it seem louder, it also carries further.

Haw does natural echo compare to delay on an amp?
DukeBerryman
310 posts
Mar 29, 2014
5:27 PM
@STME58 That subway stairwell sounds cool. I only use a dry slapback because I think that sounds more natural and you can play along to the rhythm of the echo. I think a natural echo decays fairly quickly (unless you're in a subway stairwell!)
STME58
709 posts
Mar 29, 2014
6:25 PM
" I think a natural echo decays fairly quickly (unless you're in a subway stairwell!)"

or a cathedral of the type @wolfkristiansen's dad might have sung in. The Cathedral of Freiburg has a reverberation time of over 6 seconds according to the liner notes on my E. Power Biggs album. This was built and used for music long before electronic amplification was available.
nacoran
7665 posts
Mar 29, 2014
9:25 PM
In choir we used to do an exercise where we'd take a deep breath, filling our chests, shoulders back (not the gut and don't slouch) then slowly let out a hiss sort of like sshhhh. The object was to do it as evenly as possible, with the goal being to hold it as long as you could. Focus on the evenness. I was usually one of the last ones going. I'd max out at about a minute. I just gave it a try, but I only made it half that now. The trick isn't the lasting, but the technique you learn to control your breath evenly. If you pulse, you'll run out of air real quickly.

Quiet is hard. A slight difference in pressure is much more dramatic at lower levels, so it's easy to sound uneven.

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shadoe42
290 posts
Mar 29, 2014
9:52 PM
One thing that helps being able to fade out is back pressure inside your mouth cavity. Its more or less what nacoran is talking about above. The trick is to keep the air stream as even as possible as you slack off the flow.. keeping a higher back pressure helps keep the note even. One thing that helped me develop decent back pressure and how to utilize it was learning the irish whistle. Many whistles take quite a bit of back pressure to hold the note steady without dropping off it. Harp is the same way. well at least to me.

What the back pressure does is allow you to release your breath in a smoother way over a longer period of time.

vocally the straw exercise is often used and will work for just about any instrument that uses air flow

Blow air through a small stirring straw while phonating glides up and down through your range. The backpressure created by the resistance of the straw presses down on the vocal cords and helps decrease puffiness, a major source of vocal trouble.




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Dr. Rev. Mr. Cheeks Miller
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Frank
4098 posts
Mar 30, 2014
9:38 AM
(The electronics in some ways make acoustic dynamics a moot point...)
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True, great sounding amped or effects harp playing are only as good as the players pure acoustic abilities.


The players "acoustic chops and dynamics" are what give any electronic additions the ability to bring those dynamics to a fuller, louder ( and hopefully pleasing) awareness to the listener, especially when cupping techniques enter the equation.


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( what differences do you notice between playing louder with less
amplification and playing softly but letting the electronics bring up the volume.
I don't do much amplified, so I am curious.)
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I try to not play acoustically louder regardless of the volume levels either set high or low...

I'm looking for the sweet spot where the harmonica responds best, naturally, with out playing to loud or too soft.

Then try and maintain that level of breathe control awareness regardless of where the volume level is on an amp or effects set.

When I say I am playing lightly - I am referring to playing with a breathe volume that gives the reeds the best chance to respond without any unnecessary force.

Im not concerned if I can get the harmonica to play loud, I want it to play at the volume that suits it for sounding it's best.

Last Edited by Frank on Mar 30, 2014 9:40 AM
The Iceman
1561 posts
Mar 30, 2014
9:49 AM
well well, for once Frank is spot on (koff). ;>p

There is a place where you use breath force efficiently to achieve the best results of volume/tone without any energy waste. When you go beyond this point, you use more force but the return is diminished.

I've promoted "LONG TONES" for years in order to personally find this area for each student.

Visually, I suggest imagining that the long tone is like a beam of steel emerging from the back of the harmonica and filling the room.

Steel will be consistent in size, shape and density, without any wavering of variation in volume.

Learning to breathe the harmonica with this mind set and hang the note in the air for 30 seconds or more as a solid steel beam is a great way to discover what you are doing right and wrong.

You can diminish the volume without losing that solid note as well.
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The Iceman
MindTheGap
403 posts
Mar 30, 2014
10:19 AM
Ah, this is good.

Iceman - re your law of diminishing returns, I definitely have found there is a 'most efficient' place in terms of puff, and getting much more acoustic volume requires a relatively much larger amount of air, most of it feels like it's wasted. Then it's problems of running out of breath (or having a lungful to get rid of). Is that not just me then?

My 'most efficient' place seems to be a bit quieter than most, but I don't dislike it. That's acoustic. When playing amped all the good 'amped' effects (crunchiness and tone shaping etc) seem to come from playing very softly indeed which suits me very well. If I try playing loudly, amped, it all comes out the same tone.

EDIT: Sorry, I appreciate this is a bit different from the OP.

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mtg

Last Edited by MindTheGap on Mar 30, 2014 10:20 AM
The Iceman
1562 posts
Mar 30, 2014
11:40 AM
You don't really need more acoustic volume using wasted air...Let the electronics/mic do that heavy lifting for you.
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The Iceman
Pistolcat
607 posts
Mar 30, 2014
1:33 PM
Hi, wolf! Yes, gapping will let you "thin" your note further. It will also get your harp's reed to play sooner when starting it. The leakage allowed around the reed will be less and it'll force the reed to play with lesser force. If this 'force' will transpose directly to sound I'm not so sure of. Probably not directly but to a degree.

Here's a video I did, and posted earlier where I play as soft as possible. It's most definitely too soft to be fully serviceable, see franks post above, but it was an experiment/practise routine.

http://youtu.be/0odg1drHBJQ
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Pistolkatt - Pistolkatts youtube
The Iceman
1563 posts
Mar 30, 2014
1:42 PM
Frank...to make thinning hair grow thicker, sit on a short stool and grunt.
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The Iceman
Frank
4107 posts
Mar 30, 2014
2:38 PM
Seems like a stomach virus to me Iceman, try some chicken broth :)

Last Edited by Frank on Mar 30, 2014 2:39 PM
STME58
712 posts
Mar 30, 2014
10:33 PM
I notice that there is advice here on both technique and equipment. It seems that the answer to the question "is it me or my harp" is usually yes. I have not doubt the proper setup will make a harp more responsive. I also expect that a person with excellent breath control can get and even, soft note out of a poorly set up harp.
JInx
763 posts
Mar 31, 2014
11:41 AM
try a crossover, you can "thin" a note down to less whisper with one of dem things
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