Mirco
141 posts
Mar 20, 2014
5:14 PM
|
I'm currently learning how to play fills through David Barrett's bluesharmonica.com. He provides a song to practice on, but I'm looking for more variety. I want to practice different grooves.
Can anyone think of any good songs on which to practice fills? I'm looking for anything with space in the vocals. Does anyone make jam tracks for this specific use?
And please, give the key of the song if you know it.
|
rogonzab
516 posts
Mar 21, 2014
12:45 PM
|
Good question.
Any suggestion?
|
HawkeyeKane
2408 posts
Mar 21, 2014
12:50 PM
|
Looking for any particular genre?
----------
Hawkeye Kane - Hipbone Sam
|
orphan
325 posts
Mar 21, 2014
1:18 PM
|
This will keep you busy..
http://www.lonewolfblues.com/store/index.php?crn=209&rn=400&action=show_detail
Jimi Lee - Every Groove A Blues Man Needs To Know
----------
.JPG)
|
Mirco
142 posts
Mar 21, 2014
3:40 PM
|
Any blues, any key.
Shuffles, rhumbas, slow blues, anything...
|
Harp Study
22 posts
Mar 21, 2014
7:29 PM
|
I am in the same boat as Micro on this one. I love the typical blues tracks (or any musical backing tracks really as I like many genres), but the typical backing track leaves you trying to lay down some type of instrumental. While that has a lot of benefit to practice it would probably be better (or at least good) practice to play along to a backing track that carried some vocals and other instrument solos.
I will admit that the visual cues for switching between solos wouldn't be there, but the practice for playing as an accompanying musician would be and that is something that most harp players could use some practice on. I personally believe the harmonica is looked down upon by most musicians because of many harp player's lack of providing a supporting role to the song vs soloing. The only way we get better at this type of thing is to practice and I feel like the typical backing track that is out there only inflates the need to just solo all the time.
I would absolutely love some backing tracks with all the instruments (including some other instrument solos) and the vocals laid down just to get practice trying to play with a "fake band".
Just my opinion
|
Mirco
143 posts
Mar 21, 2014
10:36 PM
|
Thanks, Harp Study, for putting down what was in my head. Orphan, those Jimi Lee tracks look like great practice, but I'm looking for something with vocals, so I can practice accompanying and playing fills.
I definitely will get that Jimi Lee package at some point, though. I need to be familiar with those.
|
SuperBee
1787 posts
Mar 22, 2014
12:50 AM
|
How about doing your own vocals? Or playing vocal lines and fills between. Or imagining the vocal, or humming?
Yeah, I dunno...that's all I got
|
Kingley
3534 posts
Mar 22, 2014
1:00 AM
|
The easiest way to learn to play fills and play around vocalists is to do a number of things. Start going to jams and gigs, listen to other players (of any instrument) and hear/see how they work around a vocalist and play fills. Or put on music at home and listen properly to what is going on. After a while, when you think you're getting the hang of it. Pick up your harp and start trying to play fills along with the music at home. Listen carefully and simply avoid stepping on the vocals to begin with. Once you have the hang of doing that, go to a jam and try doing the same thing there. Once you have the hang of doing that start learning to play "under" the vocals and using more dynamics in your playing. To find the key of the song at home use your two draw on your harp. If it matches then you're golden. If it doesn't then pick up a different harp until you find the right key. It might be an idea to write down the keys of certain songs so you can have a bunch of them to play along with. Practice playing fills to shuffle grooves, rhumbas, slow blues, boogies, swing and two beat rhythms (songs like High Heeled Sneakers). This will give you a good grounding as too what to expect at a typical jam.
Last Edited by Kingley on Mar 22, 2014 1:01 AM
|
SuperBee
1788 posts
Mar 22, 2014
1:17 AM
|
Btw, I don't think I agree with the statement that backing tracks require you to lay down some kind of instrumental. I guess you can use them for that, but that's not what I see as the primary purpose. Unless it's a specific thing like mr shoji does with the idea you can learn note for note little Walter etc, which is a fine and valid thing to do IMHO...
But primarily I think BTs are great for practicing smaller chunks. Bass lines for instance, which will really teach you arpeggios and how to use them. For that matter, just practicing arpeggios is cool. And practice time, switching time. Going from Swing to straight, 1/4 notes to 1/8 notes to triplets to 1/4 etc. grooving licks or riffs so you get to understand how things fit together with various grooves...
All these things are great to do with BTs because they get your brain working in real time.
|
MindTheGap
370 posts
Mar 22, 2014
3:55 AM
|
Mirco, Harp Study, I get you. For learning other instruments you can buy 'music minus one' tracks. Is that the kind of thing? I guess blues harp is too minority for that.
I agree with Kingley and Superbee though that BTs can be used in all sorts of interesting ways, and you can comp to other songs too.
I have David Barretts comping lessons and he has an excellent discography at the end. Imagine having e.g. Jimmy Rogers' Ludella minus harp part to play along to.
----------
mtg
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Mar 22, 2014 3:55 AM
|
Kingley
3535 posts
Mar 22, 2014
4:33 AM
|
I think a person would be better spending their time learning the harp parts that Kim Wilson is playing on Ludella. In fact if you took that album (or any other good album) and just immersed yourself in it and didn't play anything else until you could play all the stuff on that album to a passable level. You'd be a pretty fine harp player. Learning at the feet of the masters is part of the learning process and cannot be underestimated.
All these online lessons and backing tracks are great, but mostly they teach you how to jam instrumentals. Not many of them really teach a person how to play songs or back up singers properly. Which as a harp player is most of your work. Listening to records and learning the parts is how pretty much every great player around has learnt to play. In my opinion it's best to forget soloing, instrumentals and histrionics and learn how to support people. This will teach you much more about playing music than learning Juke for example. Not of course that learning Juke isn't worthwhile. It is.
However it's far better to learn how Little Walter backed up people if you want to be able to play at jams and in bands. Being a good soloist is about as much use as a chocolate teapot if you don't know how to back up anyone else. I mean think about it, how many times have you seen a harp player standing on stage like a spare part, just waiting for his solo to happen? Now take someone like Dennis Gruenling for example. He is working all the time, he's backing up the rhythm, supporting the vocalist, doing call and response with the soloist, adding accents here and there to generally punctuate things, relating to the audience, pointing them towards where the action is at that particular moment in the music. Man, Dennis is one busy cat on stage! Kim is the same, when he's backing someone. Little Walter was the same, Big Walter was the same, Lynwood Slim is the same, Rick Estrin is the same. The list goes on and on. being able to support other musicians and vocalists is where it's at baby. Soloing is just the icing on the cake. The same thing goes for any instrument.
|
MindTheGap
371 posts
Mar 22, 2014
5:28 AM
|
You really hit a spot with me there Kingley. When I started learning harp, all the materials were pointing towards 'solo' in one way or another. But when I started playing with others, it was clear that comping effectively and supportively was the thing. I still work on learning and working out solos, but the real bread and butter and meat and potatoes is in backing up the song. Particularly working stuff out that makes songs distinctive - rather than just hacking out the same solo licks. Which, especially for a beginner, may be a limited set.
Well, hopefully I understood you correctly!
That said, what I was thinking of was the Jimmy Rogers' version of Ludella, with the harmonica comping part removed. So you could learn accompaniment (and/or solo parts) and then play along. Just like they have for music-minus-one for learning drums, guitar etc. But I don't think these things exist for harp, so I just play along with the track as it is!
----------
mtg
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Mar 22, 2014 5:29 AM
|
Frank
4058 posts
Mar 22, 2014
6:40 AM
|
Blues CD's or Blues radio can be used for (practicing fills) - it is a "high art" to master...
And like anything else, the more you actively concentrate on that discipline it will become second nature and intuitive.
As mentioned there a tons of perfect examples from the masters on what your looking to accomplish - in the end you'll eventually find your own unique way of doing it as you persevere.
Becoming proficient at fills is important because that's were a lot of the power comes from when it is your turn to take a solo within a song...
By grooving along and accompanying the song as part of the rhythm section - you will be primed and inspired if called upon to solo.
In otherwords being good at fills/accompaniment is a great springboard for diving into a solo :)
Last Edited by Frank on Mar 22, 2014 6:49 AM
|
rogonzab
518 posts
Mar 22, 2014
10:23 AM
|
Try this:
When I want to play certain song, let say a Muddy Water song, and want to play whit a singer not just a BT, I write on YT "X muddy waters cover" and I select from the list a version that I like and use that as a BT to play whit.
This is an example of this, I did this over a year ago.
Last Edited by rogonzab on Mar 22, 2014 10:24 AM
|
groyster1
2573 posts
Mar 22, 2014
8:14 PM
|
adam has a great jam track with Charlie Hilbert...when he says"blow your horn" the floor is yours....when I have it on I don't play over his vocals but theres lots of room for fills
|
Mirco
144 posts
Mar 22, 2014
8:49 PM
|
Rogonzab, that is a excellent idea. That is exactly the sort of thing I was looking for. Thank you.
|
Harp Study
24 posts
Mar 23, 2014
5:12 AM
|
There is some all around good advice here. Thanks to everyone for that.
Rogonzab: that is an excellent idea and exactly the type of thing I was looking for.I am gonna give that a go.
|
kudzurunner
4624 posts
Mar 23, 2014
5:36 AM
|
I think the best way of really GETTING fills is to sing blues, no matter how badly, and then play fills between your own vocal lines. Pick a blues with lyrics that fall strongly on the beat. Try a song like T. Bone Walker's "Tell Me What's the Reason." You may need to adjust the word-placement slightly relative to the beat:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000VIIER2/ref=dm_ws_tlw_trk19
Even is you just SPEAK the lyrics rather than singing them, this exercise will work. And if you can speak/sing them solo, just tapping your foot, without any backing track, and then play fills, you'll immediately sense what I'm talking about. When you sing and play fills, you'll find that it is absolutely impossible to play over your own vocal lines. When you get so you can FEEL the back-and-forth rhythm between vocals and fills, you'll have taken a huge step ahead. Then, as a sideman, you can experiment with actually stepping on part of the vocal line or, like Little Walter, playing semi-quietly under the vocal line and then stepping out during the breaks.
Last Edited by kudzurunner on Mar 23, 2014 5:38 AM
|
Mirco
145 posts
Mar 24, 2014
9:00 PM
|
Damn, a direct recommendation from Dr. Gussow. I'm going to learn that T. Bone song ASAP and sing my ass off on that stage. Or maybe first, post a version on YouTube for the constructive criticism of the community.
Thanks, all, for the recommendations.
|
Joe_L
2449 posts
Mar 24, 2014
9:34 PM
|
Mirco - Since, I've seen you in action a few times, I would like to suggest avoiding backing tracks. They don't help a person in knowing what to play. There's an old line in Chicago, "play what fits". The only way a person knows what fits is to do a lot of listening.
My suggestion is that you listen to more Blues music. Pick up some Muddy Waters CD's and listen to what Little Walter or other harp players are doing. Listen to CD's where the lead artist is not a harmonica player. There are other players to steal from. Start with the entire Chess records catalog and go from there.
If you want to play Blues and have it sound right, you need to learn more like an old school student. You'll need to wear out records and practicing to them. Since, you are in the Bay Area, there are some really good players here that you can see frequently. Get close to them. Watch what they do.
If you are a member of David's site with access to the interviews. Listen to the interviews of the Blues player like Mark Hummel, Billy Branch and some of the guys who have been around the Blues scene. They all have a few things in common. They wore out records. They hung out and absorbed stuff from other players in a live setting. They practiced their asses off.
If you are playing fills, it helps to know the tune and the vocal delivery patterns of the singer. The only way that happens is by knowing the tunes and knowing what the singer will do.
I'm not a fan of backing tracks, but if you must do backing tracks, go to harmonicaboogie.com. Play along with them. Record them. Listen to your results. Play more of the stuff that sounds right and less of the wrong stuff. Post them for feedback.
----------
The Blues Photo Gallery
Last Edited by Joe_L on Mar 24, 2014 9:35 PM
|
Kingley
3541 posts
Mar 24, 2014
11:08 PM
|
I agree with Joe completely on this.
Everyone who know how to do this stuff (including Adam Gussow) all learnt the same way. The ONLY way you can learn to speak a language like a native does is by speaking it and being around people who speak it. You can't learn it in a book or by some teach yourself method. You can only REALLY learn it by complete immersion. If blues music is the language you wish to speak then you need to surround yourself with people who are speaking it. Which in this case is the music and the players. Learn to listen a lot. Don't join the conversation until you understand the meaning of it and have something valid to say. Buy, beg, borrow or steal every blues record you can get hold of and build up a good library. Listen to music whenever you can. Instead of watching tv, put music on, in the car put music on, at the computer put music on, in the gym put music on, walking the dog put music on, etc, etc. Listen, really listen to what is going on. If you don't understand something keep listening to it until you do.
As you live in the Bay area you are in a better position than many to learn that language first hand. Go out listen to those players talking it and immerse yourself in it. Visit those musical libraries as often as you can. Go home after gigs and jams and seek out the songs you heard played. Listen to them and learn to mimic them. After a while as your competence grows you'll be able to do more than just mimic and eventually if you keep at it and work long, hard and diligently, you might be able to add your own voice to those conversations.
Last Edited by Kingley on Mar 24, 2014 11:10 PM
|
Mirco
146 posts
Mar 24, 2014
11:26 PM
|
Thanks for the encouragement, Joe and Kingley. Joe, I thought you were going to write, "Since I've seen you in action a few times, I would like to suggest avoiding harmonica." : )
I know that what you're saying is true, and I know that what you're saying will take some time and patience. I've got a good collection of albums that I'm internalizing.
Ultimately, I need to understand that I'm really early in this. I've only been playing a little over a year, so I have to continue following the path. At this point, I probably couldn't begin to emulate some of those players...I need time and practice for my technique to catch up. I'm always, however, looking for something that I can play now, in the meantime, until I grow more.
|
Joe_L
2450 posts
Mar 25, 2014
8:01 AM
|
Damn! Why would I say something like that? I'm a jerk only to people who are jerks to me. You guys have been nothing but nice.
You've got the stones to get up there and do it. Mot people wont ever do that.
Now, you need to figure out what to play and how to do it. Another suggestion, learn to sing a few tunes. Think simple stuff like Jimmy Reed. His harp playing may sound simple, but if you can get 70% there with decent vocal delivery, it'll work.
Learning how to accompany can be pretty daunting. You never know what is going to be thrown at you by the singer or leader.
----------
The Blues Photo Gallery
Last Edited by Joe_L on Mar 25, 2014 8:03 AM
|
dougharps
587 posts
Mar 25, 2014
8:24 AM
|
"You never know what is going to be thrown at you by the singer or leader."
But that is the fun part!
At first think of minimalistic fills, like short horn lines, until you know the song (and the band). Don't alienate the singer by playing too much. One of the first compliments that I received was when the sax player in a band said that he didn't mind when I sat in (as opposed to other harp players), because I listened and I knew when NOT to play.
"When in doubt, lay out" cannot be emphasized enough.
As you get to know the band and the singer you can gradually stretch out a little, but not too much.
Also, I agree that learning to sing some songs will help you understand fills. It will also make you more valuable as a prospective band member.
EDIT: You should immerse yourself in the music you will be playing. A cautionary note: Muddy's band members were sometimes pretty busy, and often played at the same time. They created an interwoven texture that was part of the band's excellence. If you are at a jam or sitting in, you should not try to replicate this, or you may be viewed as stepping on the vocals or other player's fills. Watch the band members closely and listen attentively.
----------
Doug S.
Last Edited by dougharps on Mar 25, 2014 8:29 AM
|
Frank
4069 posts
Mar 27, 2014
5:54 AM
|
|
dougharps
588 posts
Mar 27, 2014
10:15 AM
|
I really like Rob Paparazzi's playing, both diatonic and chromatic! And the groove!!!
----------
Doug S.
|
Mirco
147 posts
Mar 29, 2014
9:24 AM
|
Right now, I am trying to figure out what "decent" vocal delivery would be (as Joe L. put it). As I am just learning harmonica, I put all my practice into that and have limited time, at this point, to put into practicing vocals. My friend, who is a a songwriter and music teacher, pointed me to Ron Anderson's website and told me to get his app. He said, and I tend to agree, that "no instrument is without discipline."
Can I achieve "decent" delivery and sound acceptable without losing all my harmonica practice time to singing? I'm aiming for more Peter Criss than Paul Stanley. Is that a good reference point? More Keith Richards than Mick Jagger?
|
Frank
4085 posts
Mar 29, 2014
9:30 AM
|
Practice singing and typing at the same time - point is, just do it (all the time) - and "it" will develope in it's own good time - till then it's all theory :)
Sing when you walk, on the toilet, in the car, while cooking etc. etc.
Last Edited by Frank on Mar 29, 2014 9:32 AM
|
Joe_L
2453 posts
Mar 29, 2014
9:55 AM
|
Mirco - that's why I suggest practicing to records. You can do both. Sing and blow harp. Listen and absorb. Get several copies of the same song by different artists (or with different harp players). Listen to how each player approaches the same song. Try to play both.
For example, James Cotton, Carey Bell and Junior Wells all played Muddy Waters songs. They all played them differently.
Don't make it about practice. That sounds like work. Make it about fun, then it won't seem like practice. When youre disassembling licks, make like solving a puzzle. You'll discover other licks along the way as you make your "mistakes". Music is a beautiful thing.
Another thing, don't expect miracles at jams. It is very rare to be put on stage with people you click with musically. Even when it does happen, it takes a while before things fall into play. Quite often, you have to work with what you've got. It's about listening and having shared direction. Patience is important.
Enjoy the ride, my friend.
----------
The Blues Photo Gallery
|
dougharps
592 posts
Mar 29, 2014
10:44 AM
|
Joe L just posted a LOT of really important suggestions and ideas.
Great post, Joe!
----------
Doug S.
Last Edited by dougharps on Mar 29, 2014 10:45 AM
|
Frank
4092 posts
Mar 29, 2014
2:06 PM
|
This is a good one to learn cause the lyrics are easy to remember and you can make it your own :)
|
