What is the easiest or nicest sounding position to play II-V-I progressions in? I've been reading a lot about 12th position that is good for jazz. Is the I chord than played in 12th position?
You probably won't have a full chord, but that progression can certainly be played in other positions as well, including 1st and 2nd. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
I'd use 2nd. Over the II then that's 4th position - say Am on a C harp - which you can't go too far wrong.
The trickiest part is getting the right intonation on the 3 draw double bend, which is your root note over that chord. Or centre on the 6 draw - or not at all, as you are playing jazz. That said, Buddha's playing in 12th position is fantastic
Last Edited by on Jan 07, 2010 8:06 AM
You know, a player can fit harmonica to a much wider variety of material if one does NOT play chords, and just plays single notes that work over the chord changes. The chords available on the instrument are very primitive and therefore very limiting. BUT, if you don't play chords, you can sound good on a lot of material that is not usually played on harp by just playing single notes that are compatible with the chords of the tune.
12th position has a major 7th. Draw 5 is root and draw 6 is the major third and can be bent down to a flat third. if you are playing in positions other than first second or third, it is hard to find chords that work well, so my solution is not to play chords.
I agree with you hvyj, I don't even like the sound of a harmonica chord. Or maybe for some chucks here and there.
I really like the sound of 12th position. But in a II-V-I that means:
- You're playing in first position over the II-chord, which is usually minor. This seems strange, as first position is a major one. - V is a dominant seventh chord, which is good to play in second position I think.
Buddha's twelfth position videos are indeed very cool. But as he doesn't like first and second position, how could he like playing them in this II-V-I progression?
In 12th you would be playing in SECOND position over the II chord. The 2d of the scale is blow 6 which is root in SECOND position. Blow 6 is the 5th degree of the scale in FIRST position and the 4th degree of the scale in THIRD Position.
SO...the second position scale is the scale of the root note of the II chord in 12th position. But this also means you have the major 3d of the II chord scale in the upper register (draw 7) that you can't bend.
Btw, 11th is essentially the same breath pattern as second position blues scale.
Last Edited by on Jan 06, 2010 2:47 PM
I think it would be helpful if we talked about nth position licks as opposed to absolute positions. The playing position is just the relationship between the tonic note of the music and the letter stamped on the harp. If you are playing 2nd position licks over the II chord, you are still technically playing 12th position. Pedantry? probably. Sorry.
@Micha, I didn't say it was a problem. But I don't OB. Btw, 12th gives you Lydian mode. So, in addition to the major 7th you have a sharp 4th (or flat 5th) instead of a major 4th.
@Mr.Vlun, We are talking about what scale to play over what chord, so it's just a short, easy way of describing the breath pattern for that particular scale if you are using the root note of the chord as the root note of that scale.
Last Edited by on Jan 06, 2010 7:37 PM
I took Preston to task on this terminology thing a while ago. While I sort of understand what you're talking about,I think it confuses beginners and players lacking in music theory(like me). I'm very curious- do you think that way when you're playing? Are you looking at it as breath patterns when you play?
Tuckster, It depends. If I am playing in a position I play regularly using scales I regularly use, no, because I have played and practiced them enough that i can play them without having to think about it. But i am usually conscious of where i am on the harp as I play.
If a tune gets called that requires me to play in a position and/or play scales I'm not as familiar with, yeah, I'll consciously think about the breath pattern involved, at least at first, so i don't screw up.
Btw, if a II-V-I chord progression got called, i'd have to think about it.
Last Edited by on Jan 06, 2010 11:52 PM
I know what you were discussing, but like Tuckster I felt it would be confusing to any newbies reading it that you were using certain terms interchangeably that are not, strictly speaking, interchangeable. It is just like when people use mode and position interchangeably, or root note (chords) and tonic (scales). They are closely related concepts, but not quite> the same thing. In you posts I could see that you were using the term as a convenient shorthand and I did admit I was being pedantic! ;-)
@ anyone else seeking clarification:
Playing a C harp (for instance) melody over music in the key of F is 12th position and it stays 12th position regardless of the chords underlying your melody. (unless of course there is a keychange within the music)
In 2nd position the I chord has G as its root, in 12th position the ii chord also has G as it's root, so phrases that work in 2nd position over the I chord may also work over the ii chord in 12th position (but bearing in mind that the I is major and the ii is minor)
MrVerylongusername: You are right, it is confusing for new players. Great that you take time to set things straight :-).
But, If I want to play a certaing chord, it is much easier for me to think in what position I would be playing that one to find out if the corresponding scale matches with the notes on the harmonica.
"Buddha's twelfth position videos are indeed very cool. But as he doesn't like first and second position, how could he like playing them in this II-V-I progression?"
Micha, be careful with your assertions.
My stance on the position is, there is a "best" position for everything thing. My mindset is to play in a way that sounds best. So if I'm playing blues, I'm going to use 2nd. If I'm playing Jazz it's usually going to be 12th or 11th.
If you want to be serious about playing your instrument at a high level then you need to learn all the scales, all the arpeggios and all the chord sequences in all the keys. That means learn your ii-V-I in all keys.
---------- "The privilege of a lifetime is being who you are." - Joseph Campbell
Okay, eventually I will want to try to play it in every key but some guidance in the right direction would be nice. Doesn't the playing in 1st en 2nd position on the V and ii chord make it sound too bluesy?
I want to start using the Jamey Aebersold lessons, do you think they are a good way to start learning jazz on the diatonic? I'm assuming it would be good then to start them of in 12th position?
Last Edited by on Jan 07, 2010 6:43 AM
You can play in 1st or second and NOT making ANYTHING sound bluesy at all, a big part of it is how you get the articulation and intonation of your bends played ACCURATELY. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
It's worth understanding here that most jazz tunes will move to a different tonality after using a ii V I . You probably need to consider all the changes, unless you plan on using more than one harp.
