|
Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
Shorter, Accessible, Still Imperfect
Shorter, Accessible, Still Imperfect
Page:
1
harp-er
515 posts
Feb 07, 2014
6:54 AM
|
So here's a shorter piece, still improvised and impromptu, which is more conventional, accessible, familiar sounding, at least to my ears, while having my own touch. I'm curious to know if others think so. Still working on including some overbends, making it more interesting to me, and more challenging. Still imperfect in more than one way, I'm sure.
Same C GM with Andrew's dark comb.
http://sclk.co/s7jpjj (copy and paste, please).
Last Edited by harp-er on Feb 07, 2014 7:42 AM
|
DukeBerryman
126 posts
Feb 07, 2014
9:17 AM
|
Good riffs and tone but work on your timing. I see some people on here working with click tracks or metronomes, maybe that would help. I've got one for guitar, but I've never used it for harp, but I'll give it a try it, too.
|
Seven.Oh.Three.
276 posts
Feb 07, 2014
12:46 PM
|
You have the riffs, the technique and the ability. In my opinion is was lacking a theme or foundation. something to anchor it.
|
harp-er
516 posts
Feb 07, 2014
5:54 PM
|
Thanks for the feedback. Yes, it's more challenging playing without a backing track or click track. I'll keep working on it. I got myself a little foot tambourine to keep my own rhythm, but I seem to mostly stomp my foot without the tambourine.
Can you say more about what you mean by a theme/foundation/anchor? Do you mean a backing track, for example? A familiar song? I don't really care to play songs, except the ones I create on the spot. But please elaborate.
|
Seven.Oh.Three.
277 posts
Feb 07, 2014
6:15 PM
|
Not a backing track or song. In my opinion, it just seemed aimless. Like it needed an anchor. Something to keep my interest. To me it was lacking focus. I'm not knocking your playing, I think you've got a solid idea what you're doing. But, I'd incorporate some kind of hook riff that makes a chorus. Does that make sense?
|
harpdude61
1964 posts
Feb 07, 2014
6:54 PM
|
I recently took a lesson from Mr. Ricci. I do fine with my band behind me. No prob. BUT! Can they take a 7 or 8 minute break while I still hold the audience?? Jason is awesome at this! I'm not there yet and you are in a similar place. Much to practice for me!
|
didjcripey
698 posts
Feb 07, 2014
7:13 PM
|
I agree with 703
I understand it was impromptu improvisation, but to me it sounded more like noodling than a piece of music.
Personally I dont improvise very well at all, but when it works for me, I notice repetition with variation, call and response and phrasing as key elements.
----------
Lucky Lester
|
timeistight
1486 posts
Feb 07, 2014
7:36 PM
|
On his site, bluesharmonica.com, David Barrett has a great lesson on melodic development. Definitely worth a look.
|
BronzeWailer
1201 posts
Feb 07, 2014
8:35 PM
|
Thanks for your latest posting harp-er. You have made me think about what a song is, and what we/I try to do when playing music for others. You have some very good techniques, in my view. Your latest piece is more accessible, as you say, and more bluesy to my ears. It still has the element of moving up and down a lot without much focus. This may be an inappropriate metaphor, but if it were an interaction between a couple of lovers I would liken it more to being tickled than touched in a meaningful way. I believe that boundaries or rules force creativity. In a song, repeated elements create familiarity, the anticipation, then surprise/delight when variation happens. That is playfulness at work. Cheers....
BronzeWailer's YouTube
|
harp-er
517 posts
Feb 08, 2014
6:17 AM
|
Thanks again for all your time and trouble to listen and reply. You've given me stuff to think about and look into. What I'm taking away so far, over all, is the notion of what constitutes a song form, and what doesn't. You all have used different language, but I think are saying very similar things to me in this regard. And I do understand, I think, what it is you're saying.
The reason I think I understand is that I know I have given virtually no attention at all to playing songs. This has almost never interested me. Almost. I have learned a coupla songs that appealed to me at an earlier stage of my playing. Whenever this might come up in conversation, and it has come up two or three times with other musicians, my response has been: "I'm not interested in playing songs. What I like to do is improvise over chord changes."
So I hear that this "noodling" does not appeal to people, since it doesn't provide the structure, the hook, the familiarity, the predictability that people rely upon and expect in music. I hear this. I do. I'm not at all sure I care. Maybe I'll grow to care as I develop, or as my interests change. I don't know.
But I will continue to think about all this and develop
my playing. So again, it's wonderful to have such an involved group of players at my disposal, so to speak, and you all have my warmest gratitude.
Last Edited by harp-er on Feb 08, 2014 6:27 AM
|
timeistight
1487 posts
Feb 08, 2014
7:59 AM
|
"I'm not interested in playing songs. What I like to do is improvise over chord changes."
What chord progression are you improvising over in the sample you posted?
Last Edited by timeistight on Feb 08, 2014 8:00 AM
|
Frank
3797 posts
Feb 08, 2014
8:01 AM
|
Matt hello...
We all must go through a learning/searching phase of strictly exploring notes, sounds etc. on our chosen instrument any way we see fit...It's needed, expected, and is a fun healthy way to begin feeling comfortable with the instrument.
I call it the renegade phase because we are naturally rebelling against growing up musically and could careless anyway-- because we are having so much enjoyment just doing things musically our own way.
Growing into adulthood can be difficult for many of us, because as children we don't much like Authority dictating how we should live are lives, having to adhere to social norms, regulations, etc...
Plus in all reality, it is much easier to stay a child - then to follow the many rules and disciplines required to become and stay a productive adult..
With music, eventually, we all make a choice whether or not to follow a harder more regulated path that leads to musical maturity or one that is a lot easier to pursue yet results in mostly childish endeavors.
Not saying one is better then the other, only that we do have a choice in the matter with just how far we want to go with growing up musically...It is not easy to do and most players choose not to graduate into musical adulthood.
Some players are satisfied musically speaking with staying a child, some will be happy as a teen, others may travel father still...But to get from one phase to the next takes choosing to be responsible enough to follow a path that will actually teach the necessary lessons to attain the growth needed to mature.
We don't necessarily need to leave all the childish things behind... we just need to believe that to grow-up musically speaking is worthy of the hard work, disipline and effort required :)
Last Edited by Frank on Feb 08, 2014 8:08 AM
|
timeistight
1488 posts
Feb 08, 2014
8:14 AM
|
Well said, Frank.
|
harp-er
518 posts
Feb 08, 2014
8:36 AM
|
Well, I'm telling myself that it's a pretty standard progression of I IV V chords. Seems that way to me.
Yes, I think it may be a matter, to some degree, of level of commitment/interest/goals. Maybe I'm at a child's stage of development. I don't really think so, but maybe I am. Really, the song form itself doesn't interest me so much. "Repetition with variation". That's a wonderful notion, a venerable notion. Much inspiring, enjoyable, meaningful music has been made by that formula. I don't question that. I'm only saying that it doesn't particularly interest me. And again, since I have no ambitions as a performer, am quite happy to remain a fairly serious amateur - "fairly serious", as in, there are clear limits to my level of commitment - I have and enjoy the liberty to take this in whatever direction does interest me. I understand that if I was aiming at public acceptance and performance, I'd naturally need to take a different approach. But I'm not.
By the way, it may be meaningful to say that this approach to my harp playing is quite consistent with many other areas of my life as well. I'm not much interested in living up to many "norms" in any realm. I could say a lot more about all that, but if anyone is interested in that maybe a private correspondence would be more appropriate. My point being that I'm pretty sure I have grown up reasonably well overall, while moving frequently on "the road less traveled by". I'm not saying this as any kind of judgement or condescension. Just sharing something of the "who" of who I am, and I think it applies to how I go about playing harp as well.
Thanks again.
|
CWinter
98 posts
Feb 08, 2014
9:14 AM
|
"I'm not interested in playing songs. What I like to do is improvise over chord changes."
What chord progression are you improvising over in the sample you posted?
Last Edited by timeistight on Feb 08, 2014 8:00 AM
Well, I'm telling myself that it's a pretty standard progression of I IV V chords. Seems that way to me.
I thought the blues was merely a "point of departure" for you. A "pretty standard progression of I IV V chords" sounds like a blues to me.
How much do you know about improvising over chord changes? You know that there are still "rules" or at least "guidelines" for improvising, right? You can't just pick up an instrument and play whatever you want and proclaim yourself musically liberated and free from all the constraints of form and theory and evolution. I mean, of course you can do that as an American citizen, but you can't really expect it to sound like much...
I'm not knocking your playing. I'm knocking your attitude about music is all.
Are you sure you're not just masking the fact that you don't want to learn more about music?
Last Edited by CWinter on Feb 08, 2014 9:16 AM
|
Frank
3799 posts
Feb 08, 2014
9:29 AM
|
Matthew...you did state that you were curious of what others thought on this public forum, isn’t that a form of seeking public acceptance or un - acceptance?
What I hear in your playing is simply par for course of what zillions of other players at your commitment level sound like...it’s not unique, but rather very common playing / messing around. Nothing wrong with that - it is what it is :)
Your obviously hearing your music quite differently then most of the listeners are...But - your having fun it seems like... and your content with your chosen musical direction - what more could a player ask for, seems like musical bliss to me :)
Last Edited by Frank on Feb 08, 2014 10:02 AM
|
timeistight
1489 posts
Feb 08, 2014
9:35 AM
|
"Well, I'm telling myself that it's a pretty standard progression of I IV V chords. Seems that way to me."
There are a great many "standard progressions of I IV V chords," blues and otherwise. I can't tell which of them you have in mind from what you're playing.
How many bars are in your progression? Where do the chords change within the progression? How many times does the progression repeat? I can't tell from your note choices.
|
didjcripey
701 posts
Feb 08, 2014
3:10 PM
|
If you are playing for yourself, that's great, and a pure form of expression and art.
Being free from the constraints of structure and expectations of others must be a liberating experience.
Best of luck to you!
----------
Lucky Lester
|
harp-er
519 posts
Feb 08, 2014
5:15 PM
|
Yes, thank you, it seems like a kind of musical bliss to me too. And again, a lot of this may come down to my personal level of commitment and involvement, and what I am satisfied with, as a purely self indulgent exercise.
I am playing for myself, for my own enjoyment and amusement, and technical challenge, and personal challenge. I'd like that to be clear. And I fully recognize a whole different set of requirements for the pro, or for the would be pro, or even for someone just eager to get involved at jam sessions. None of these is me.
The notion that I might be masking the fact that I don't want to learn more about music might be a valid one, except for the other fact that I'm pretty clear that I don't, at this point, want to learn more about music. I'm pretty happy exploring, and expanding upon, the little I might already know.
I believe I'm playing a pretty standard 12 bar structure, with a IIII, IV IV I I, V V I I progression.
Perhaps I'll offer a piece with a very standard 12 bar blues backing track, which I think might help reveal the mysteries of some of my playing. (I mean that in a jocular way, please; about the mysteries, that is).
|
BronzeWailer
1203 posts
Feb 08, 2014
5:24 PM
|
If you play purely for your own fun, that's fine. Having fun is the main thing, IMHO. If you're not having fun, then what's the point? However, I would be personally interested/curious to hear you do the backing track thing.
BronzeWailer's YouTube
|
Greg Heumann
2596 posts
Feb 08, 2014
5:27 PM
|
The only one you have to please is yourself. But then you did come here asking for feedback. You don't seem to want to really hear it but argue about it. My 2 cents - it is sloppy. It is rambling. It has no point. And it certainly doesn't imply I IV V progression. For that, sans a bass player, you probably need to hit the root of each chord at the beginning of its appearance (at least.) Better yet, hit the 3rd and 7th of those chords - they are what makes a chord unique. What I hear could all have been played against the I chord.
Some people say "I'm just playing what I feel" and "I'm just playing it for myself" - those are unassailable defenses and if you're truly happy - so be it. But you wanted our feedback so I think you care that what you play is pleasing to others. Because others can't hear what else might be in your head while you're playing, you probably need to give us a little more structure.
----------
***************************************************
/Greg
BlowsMeAway Productions
See my Customer Mics album on Facebook
BlueState - my band
Bluestate on iTunes
Last Edited by Greg Heumann on Feb 08, 2014 5:28 PM
|
harp-er
520 posts
Feb 08, 2014
5:45 PM
|
I haven't wanted to, and still don't want to argue at all, simply share. To me, sharing doesn't imply agreeing, necessarily, or even having similar experiences. I seem to have offended you however, which surprises me, and I certainly have not intended to do so.
By the way, I'm not even offended by what might be seen as the somewhat aggressive, even attacking tone of your feedback. So be it, but I just wonder what offended you so?
Last Edited by harp-er on Feb 08, 2014 5:47 PM
|
harp-er
521 posts
Feb 08, 2014
8:55 PM
|
Here's as standard a 12 bar blues as I know of, the classic Stormy Monday. Please, please forgive the recording quality. I'm a virtual recording idiot, and I have no good equipment to work with either. But, I think it will demonstrate some of what we've been talking about. Maybe I'm hallucinating.
http://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=12679089
Still imperfect, still some slop, but not bad I think, and it represents my "improvising over chord changes" pretty clearly I think.
|
Frank
3804 posts
Feb 09, 2014
3:39 AM
|
Mornin Matthew...That was an excellent Back track to showcase some of your skills...You're on your way to becoming a fine "harper"... good job buddy! Have you ever visited the site below? - it is a wonderful atmosphere to share learn and grow as a musician :)
--------------------------------------------------------
Welcome to Rick Beall's HarmonicaBoogie.com.
Welcome to Rick Beall's HarmonicaBoogie.com.
This is Jam XXV!
The July 2013 jam has started!
The Jam runs from July 7, 2013, to February 9, 2014. It is hard to believe that we have been running the jam for 12 years since 2001. The way it works is some folks write backing tracks, the players download and play to them. The player uploads the track with harmonica, and then everyone listens, votes and comments.
Welcome to Rick Beall's HarmonicaBoogie.com.
Last Edited by Frank on Feb 09, 2014 3:43 AM
|
harp-er
523 posts
Feb 09, 2014
6:23 AM
|
Wow. Thank you Frank. Those are very kind, and encouraging words. I was hoping that track would help clarify some of the discussion on this and the previous thread.
Yes, I visited the HarmonicaBoogie site a fair little bit for a while when I first got started, but I haven't for a good while now. Maybe it's time again.
|
Greg Heumann
2597 posts
Feb 09, 2014
9:00 AM
|
I didn't mean to offend you and I'm sorry if I did. Just telling' it as clear and honest as I can. When I ask for feedback I want the TRUTH as the feedback giver sees it. I don't want anyone blowing smoke up my ass. In other words, I want Simon Cowel, not Paul Abdul.
Your playing against the backing track does have more structure. But some of the playing still sounds accidental to me. Your 3 draw bends are strong. You are at what I would call an advanced beginner stage.
----------
***************************************************
/Greg
BlowsMeAway Productions
See my Customer Mics album on Facebook
BlueState - my band
Bluestate on iTunes
Last Edited by Greg Heumann on Feb 09, 2014 9:01 AM
|
dougharps
551 posts
Feb 09, 2014
9:41 AM
|
@harp-er
Are there specific players who have an approach that has influenced the style you hear in your mind when playing?
I have heard some skilled players use a musical approach that is not heavily groove based, uses overbends, and seems to have a lot of incidental notes when playing over changes.
I won't judge your level of musical performance as my journey is incomplete and taste varies widely.
I would be interested to know if some of what is interpreted above in a negative way as being aimless noodling is actually a style that you are working toward.
For Example, at 2:00
Scott's approach is not to everyone's taste, but he does have good harmonica skills, and many enjoy his style. It is not traditional blues harmonica.
Is this the kind of music you are working toward?
----------
Doug S.
|
harp-er
524 posts
Feb 09, 2014
10:08 AM
|
Well Greg, we have found some common ground: I'm not interested either in having smoke blown up my ass, or in being pandered to in any way. I also appreciate the truth, and take it with a grain of salt, as everyone's "truth" seems to vary quite a lot. In the end it's entirely my own truth, certainly informed by others', that wins out.
Doug, thank you for your sensitivity and creative openness. It's true, I'm not so much interested in a hard groove based, more traditional way of playing blues, although I love listening to and moving to that, as well as listening to, and maybe moving to lots of other styles and genres of music, not just blues. As far as harp playing goes, I'm aiming for something loser, more fluid, and more swing, or even bop based, rather than what I might call hard, in the pocket, rock groove based. In that way, I find a considerably greater freedom of expression is available to me - I'm only talking about me here - than otherwise.
My musical playing roots/heart, if you like, from a very young age, are in jazz, not rock, so I naturally lean strongly in that direction. As I said in my first thread, I'll never be a true jazz harp player, not, I think, because I don't have the potential, but because I don't have the interest/will/desire to make it my life's work. I'm already busy in that department.
So yes, those who have no grounding in jazz, either as an appreciative listener or as a player (my first instrument is the drum kit, which I cut my teeth on playing jazz) probably won't much appreciate what I'm doing, and will find it more easy to discount based on their own framework, I think. That's ok.. But I do appreciate your awareness here.
Last Edited by harp-er on Feb 09, 2014 11:43 AM
|
harp-er
525 posts
Feb 09, 2014
1:04 PM
|
I'd like to just, again, say thanks to everyone who has bothered to listen to one or two or even three of the pieces I posted. Wow. That's extremely generous of you all and I truly appreciate it. I also appreciate your feedback, even if I don't entirely agree with it. I don't take any of it lightly, and I do and will continue to consider all of it.
And again, I'd like to express my appreciation for this incredible forum and for all of us who are involved on it. What an astounding resource. What a wonderful gift from Dr. Adam.
I'm gonna take a break now from the two threads I started, and sign off. Peace be with you all.
|
Post a Message
|
