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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
Lost tunes in 3 Lee Oscar and one Hering.
Lost tunes in 3 Lee Oscar and one Hering.
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Not so sweet 62
2 posts
Jan 18, 2014
12:41 PM
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Hi fellows new here, just a beginner.
I got Lee Oscar harps at C, D, A and G. All exept the G lost tune at fourth draw. Fourth draw at them, became to very low.
Am i doing something wrong, the G harp still works fine.
Then, kind of harp addict, i bought a Hering Lumina C, then a Week later, this harp wont make any noise at all 4:th draw, WHY? I really need a harp that works all the time, what harp does?
Svenne
Last Edited by Not so sweet 62 on Jan 18, 2014 12:42 PM
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Kingley
3407 posts
Jan 18, 2014
1:02 PM
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Firstly, welcome to the forum :)
Ok here's the deal with the lost tuning. The harps need to be tuned up as the reeds go flat over time. As you're a beginner it's most likely that your using too much breath force when playing and this is flattening the pitch of the reeds very quickly. Just Google "tuning harmonicas" and you should get plenty of instruction on how to do it.
The Hering Lumina most likely has something blocking the reed. If you undo the covers and remove them, then very gently plink the reed and free it up. You'll probably even be able to see what's blocking the reed and remove that.
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rbeetsme
1477 posts
Jan 18, 2014
1:25 PM
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Lee Oskar is a soft spoken gentleman. Many of his songs are very sweet cleanly played jazz tunes. His harps don't respond well to rough housing. Look in the dictionary for a definition of breath control, you'll find a picture of Barbecue Bob. Bob will set you on the right course..
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SuperBee
1618 posts
Jan 18, 2014
1:55 PM
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Yeah it seems likely you've been monster ing the 4 draw. Maybe you can repair, or maybe they're broken. You have to open up to find out. Take the harp apart, compare the reed with the others. Maybe they're just gummed up or blocked. But if there is no gap and no other sign of mechanical blockage, you may have cracked the reed.
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Not so sweet 62
3 posts
Jan 18, 2014
2:23 PM
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Well thanks a lot for your input fellows, just playing by my self, i try to to make as much noise as possibel and loud is beauteful. Now, i just started figuring out breathing.
I really didnt abuse my Hering C before she lost her tune, took her apart and really nothing interfers with the reedings! I have had an Hohner x-b 40 G for some years and right now it has a major leak, but it never lost any tune.
The xb-40 is not for sale any more, i will try get some new reed plates for her thou.
Meanwhile, until i learned how to breath and blow the harp, is there a solid 10 hole harp that could handle some beginners abuse?
I really need to have a tuned harp with me all the time.
Svenne
Last Edited by Not so sweet 62 on Jan 18, 2014 2:28 PM
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bluemoose
933 posts
Jan 18, 2014
2:30 PM
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I've found that Bushman Delta Frost harps hold up quite well under hard playing conditions.
They can be frustrating to obtain but Elderly Instruments seems to be showing them in stock.
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SuperBee
1619 posts
Jan 18, 2014
2:42 PM
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It's interesting that rbeetsme says lee Oskar is delicate, because I'm sure I've seen the opposite stated many times; that they are often considered the most robust harmonica.
I don't play them myself, so I don't have an opinion. I've been on marine band types for years now. They break, I repair...
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Not so sweet 62
4 posts
Jan 18, 2014
3:13 PM
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" I've been on marine band types for years now. They break, I repair..."
Ive been working with my hands most of the time, and for some years, with pretty small stuff, as a dental technichian.
How does a reed get a to low tune? In my harp its no dirt causing it to get heavier (lower tune), then maybe the reed get softer, because of stress.
" I've been on marine band types for years now. They break, I repair..."
What brand? How do they break? How do you repair?
Svenne
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Barley Nectar
246 posts
Jan 18, 2014
3:39 PM
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You are playing WAY too hard!! I have been playing Lee Oskars for many years. When I started playing, sometimes I would blow a harp out quickly. I played too hard!. LO's now last me a very long time, some last for years. They are very tough harps. Look at the reeds, little tiny pieces of brass. How much sound could they possably make?
The harmonica is a finesse instrument. Very tiny variations in you face and body mussels will change the sound. Very little breath force is needed to make the reeds sound. Play just hard enough to hear the harp, no more. Practice, practice, practice. When you get to the point that, someone else, actually likes what you are playing, look into buying an amp and mic. Don't feel put off by this, I speak from experience. Good luck...BN
PS: You can buy new reedplates for those LO's. Best bang for the buck.
Last Edited by Barley Nectar on Jan 18, 2014 3:43 PM
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SuperBee
1620 posts
Jan 18, 2014
3:53 PM
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If they have just gone flat, you may be able to tune them up by removing a little brass from the free end. If they've gone very flat, it's probably a crack starting.
Usually I break D harps. I blame the repertoire. Two songs in particular I play with the band where I wail on the 4 draw and I'm obviously heavy handed. Usually when one breaks it will be not long after I played one of those two songs.
I bought a seydel tool kit (there are others as good or better). I bought some replacement reeds from hohner. Packs of 5 each, 4 and 5 draw, for C and D harps.
EDIT: I also bought Arzajac's toolkit, which is a bargain and provided the missing tools. If you're handy you could make your own of course...
Personally I install 'posts' in sp20 harps, by removing broken reed, reaming the rivet hole in the reed plate, tapping a thread into the plate, reaming the hole in replacement reed, and securing it with a nut. Centring the reed in the slot can be tricky, but you just need to persist. And usually you'll need to tune the new reed a bit. Usually I have to raise them 20 cents or so...it's been a while since I did one. :)
With the marine band/solid comb there's no room for the bolt head, so with those I tap the plate and just tighten the head down on top of the new reed, then cut off the protruding bolt on the comb side with flush-cut pliers.
Oh, you'll have to set the gap too off course, which inherently involves profiling the reed, but I've never specifically addressed that; I just do what seems to work. Looks right, sounds right, is right I think.
So far so good. I've done a few reeds for myself, a few for other people. The repairs are holding up, over a year I think...I couldn't swear to it but the earliest ones must be close to that...The repaired harps play great. But you gotta take the time to get the reed in the right place. Tolerances are tight.
Be prepared to make some mistakes I suppose, take it steady. There are some good videos about.
I watched the kinya pollard's videos on Dave Barrett's site...if you're worried about the cost of access...don't be. Totally worth it IMHO.
Anyway, there's some capital to outlay but for me the cost of tools was recouped within the first few repairs and now I don't have to worry about buying replacement harps for a while. Maybe I'm undermining the manufacturer...
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Last Edited by SuperBee on Jan 18, 2014 3:58 PM
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rbeetsme
1480 posts
Jan 18, 2014
4:18 PM
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Actually, LO harps are pretty robust. Lee himself plays with a lot of thought and focus. I'm sure he can wail though.
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Udderkuz03
38 posts
Jan 18, 2014
5:25 PM
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I rinse mine out after playing, then dry it out over the lampshade just over the hot bulb...I know, sounds wrong, but my harps were doing what this man's saying and after I took the advice from a forum, the instruments never did that as much again...plus they lasted ten times longer....
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nacoran
7503 posts
Jan 18, 2014
11:04 PM
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The only Lee Oskar I ever broke a reed on was a one that's cover fell off in the washer/dryer when I accidentally left it in the wash. (It had survived a previous wash/dry, but the one complaint I have about LO's it the cover screws are kind of short. It looks nice, but I've had them fall apart in the pocket a few times.)
Some people play really hard and break a lot of reeds. Being of humble means I fall more into the play gently school. I find my tone comes from the way I cup the harp, hold the mic and twiddle with the knobs on the amp. There are guys who play balls to the wall, as it were, and go through harps quickly though. There are some tone differences, but try messing around with the way you cup it to see if you can't get the tone you want without blowing out the harps.
There are some great videos on replacing reeds if you are handy (Richard Sleigh in particular) and some guys who repair harps (including replacing reeds) for less than half of the cost of a new one.
Check your embouchure too. Make sure you aren't bending it! (Probably not, but always rule out the simple stuff first).
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jbone
1468 posts
Jan 19, 2014
6:09 AM
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Hi62, glad to see you here. I'm going to guess you were born in '62, or that you are age 62. Right?
Myself, having messed with harmonicas for over 40 years- I am near my 59th birthday now- I have killed a lot of reeds and mostly- the 4 draw! This is one of those notes that is an important part of a blues riff or progression. I know that for many years I would be excited, usually with a loud band but not always, and I would just try to suck that reed down my throat. Very bad habit! I actually broke one off at a gig one night and never found it. Chances are I swallowed it but I'll never know.
One memorable night at a gig I killed 4 of my 6 or 7 harps thanks to drawing too hard! In the end that gig cost me over $20 to play and that was when $20 meant something.
What actually happens when we have a reed go flat or stop working? Not every time but a lot of times at least for me, that reed had been overflexed so many times that it lost its structure. On a microscopic level it developed cracks and hence could not produce the same vibration and note that it was intended to. I have not personally seen this but the above short story illustrates what I'm saying. I had a reed break off and disappear either down my throat or who knows where. This is an extreme example and in the years since I have taken some voice coaching and learned a lot more about breath FOCUS rather than FORCE. When we say breath control this amounts to first and foremost accessing your deeper range of breathing, deep into your torso. Next comes learning to focus the breath via the chest, throat, and mouth, even the lips and tongue. Once progress is made in this practice it becomes much easier to use less force to accomplish a desired note.
My advice is to try playing like there is a baby asleep in the next room. Get to know what all a harp will do at low volume. For louder performance there are microphones and amps which will do that for you. I won't get into the infinite variety of ways we can amplify but there are many good choices being made these days.
Over 40-plus years I can't tell you how many reeds I have killed. Until about 15 years ago I'd go buy a new harp when that happened. Let me add, I have tried a pretty fair variety of harmonicas over that time and every brand and model is subject to this flatting out of a reed. It's just inherent in the design of a free reed brass reed instrument. The saving grace for me is, although I don't go for replacing reeds on harps for the same reason I don't rebuild a car's engine when it goes bad ( I just want to DRIVE and I just want to PLAY HARP), I have bought models of harp that have replacement reed plates available for about half the cost of a new harp. Hohner, Bushman, and Suzuki immediately come to mind as makers who offer this on at least some models, and Lee Oskar was actually the one who brought this concept to the harmonica world.
So one way to go would be to order replacement reed plates and have them handy for your harps which will accept them. The Oskars have this option, you may want to go to the website and look them up.
One detail I think has been missed so far at least directly: depending on how "wet" you play, you may be getting a buildup of dried saliva on a reed and this will cause it to sound flat. Udderkuz mentions that he rinses his harps out after every use and this is why, to take that spit and any other foreign matter out of the picture. Frankly, when I flat a reed it's damaged beyond repair. I find it easiest to buy a reed plate but there are a lot of guys out there who will work on a harp for a reasonable fee.
I have played solo, duo, and in several bands over many years. The crucial thing I learned- after YEARS of struggle- is that a harp will only play just so loud.
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Last Edited by jbone on Jan 20, 2014 4:17 AM
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Gnarly
881 posts
Jan 19, 2014
8:15 AM
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Yes, although I don't prefer playing them, Lee Oskar harmonicas are well built and don't break easily.
Hering, on the other hand, have a reputation for being easy to break. The reeds have a nice, sweet sound tho--until they break.
I do repairs for Suzuki, and we have a one year warranty--if you break a reed within the first 12 months, we fix it free.
Hohner, 60 days, and I don't know if reed damage is covered. I have been told that the generous 2 year warranty offered by the great Seydel company does not include reed damage.
I tell customers there are two things that will kill a reed. One is playing too loud, and the other is playing a note in your mouth that contradicts the notes available on the reeds you playing. For example, draw 5 is only a half step above blow 5, there is no real bend there, and if you try to make it happen, that reed will die quickly.
Hey, this is interesting, my captcha is PC4CGL--my name is Clayton Gary Lehmann!
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MP
3063 posts
Jan 20, 2014
11:41 AM
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Yes you are playing too hard as a lot of people pointed out. The Lee Oskar may be the most durable long lasting harmonica on the market. Therefore trying another brand of harmonica is not the answer to your problem here.
More often than not, when you notice a reed sounds flat, it is too far gone to tune up again. As it is the four draw, that is a popular reed to break.
I would buy new reed plates or have someone replace your broken four draws if that is a cheaper way to go.
Hey Bee!! sounds like you've got things under control repair wise. Good going!!
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Affordable Reed Replacement
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doctom
18 posts
Jan 20, 2014
2:37 PM
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This is a bit OT but I have had problems with the thin piece of plastic along the bottom of the holes breaking...even cut my lip once. This has happened to 3 of my LO's over the past 6 months. Has anyone else had this issue?
PS:I've fixed them with crazy glue
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Not so sweet 62
5 posts
Jan 24, 2014
10:20 AM
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Thank you VERY much fellows.
A lot of you took yourself a lot of time to explain how it works, and why it doesnt and how to fix it, and shared your experience.
Im very surprised and pleased by your responds, it makes this a very attractive forum to me. This forum seems to have a pretty good speed too.
Im a beginner at harp, and i didnt have any harp experienced people at all around me, before i registered.
By your replies i got access to your very deep knowledge, and long experience.
"When you get to the point that, someone else, actually likes what you are playing, look into buying an amp and mic."
Im still at the level: just playing in the car and sometimes in the garage, then, just yesterday, a guitar playing friend ask me to add some harp to his guitar, and i will buy an Lee Oskar Tombo A harp, lets see how long it lasts.
" Hi62, glad to see you here. I'm going to guess you were born in '62, or that you are age 62. Right?"
Thanks jbone, you are almost right, im born -61, makes me 52, -62 is the year of my old Chevy im working at, then "Not so sweet 62" was what did come in my mind when i desperately trying to register here, after being rejected 3 times because someone delayed my intercontinental harp business.
Im very sweet.
I do believe i will still play pretty loud.
Very nice to get your good explanations of whats breaking, i was close to give up harp, now i will get the parts and the tools to repair my harps.
I got a lot of follow up questions and i will make separate post about it.
Thank you very much.
Svenne
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dougharps
519 posts
Jan 24, 2014
2:53 PM
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I used LOs for about 15 years after Special 20s went down hill, before they were improved again. Now I use a variety of OOTB harps including a Manji, 3 SS Seydels, Hohner MBDs,Crossovers, and Spec20s, some Delta Frosts, as well as several Deak Harp Marine Bands. Deak Harps are my favorite, then Crossovers, MBDs, Manijis, and Special 20s next. Delta Frosts are good loud harps and kind of raspy sounding. I regap all my harps to overblow at least on the 6 blow. I don't try to OB the LOs, as they seem prone to squealing.
The LOs are still good harps, and I have about 20 of them I only use for cold weather outdoor gigs. Some I have turned into Paddy Richter and Country Tuned harps by dividing plates from Melody Makers.
I just prefer the other harps listed above over LOs for regular Richter harp playing.
You are hitting the 4 draw too hard. I should know, because I originally switched to LOs because of this problem of playing it way too hard and ruining reeds. In the early '90s I was blowing out Spec20s like crazy. Switching to LOs helped, as they were far more durable. Replacement LO reedplates were the way to go after you had tried to retune reeds that were going flat and they eventually failed. I still have some new LO reedplates!
Since that time I have improved and I play far more softly and resonate more for volume instead of playing harder, but occasionally I still get carried away.
@doctom
I had the edge split below the holes on LOs occasionally and I bought replacement LO combs to repair those harps. I figured out that part of the problem was caused by the front edge of the coverplate having flattened out and when reassembling the harp, the coverplate not being seated properly on the reedplate, instead pressing against the plastic lip and splitting it. When I figured this out, when I would replace reedplates I would press the coverplate edge evenly against a table to slightly bend it so it would seat correctly. It stopped the splitting.
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Doug S.
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Not so sweet 62
6 posts
Jan 25, 2014
10:58 AM
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Thanks Doug.
I really got a very lot of good advises from you all.
I just took my Hohner G, hering C and my Lee Oscar C, apart, all reeds is rivted. I will check out the reed replacing links suggested. From not US, i will try to find out what bolts and nut size i need, and where to get it. Its all metric around here (Sweden)
Svenne
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dougharps
520 posts
Jan 25, 2014
12:37 PM
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Here is a link for Amazon Germany, Lee Oskar Major reedplates, where the price is in Euros:
Amazon.de LO reedplates
This is a lot easier and less expensive in the short run than reed replacement, unless you have the replacement reeds already.
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Doug S.
Last Edited by dougharps on Jan 25, 2014 12:38 PM
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Pistolcat
573 posts
Jan 25, 2014
12:54 PM
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Good luck, Svenne. There are some good videos on YT about reed replacements. Here's one by Mark Prados, with the handle MP here; http://youtu.be/S40w0YZTRxk
Kolla också in på ljudboken.se och välj munspelsforumet. Det är inte så aktivt som det här men du kan komma i kontakt med flera duktiga svenska munspelstekniker som Johan Hörnfeldt m fl. för diskussion eller höra vad de tar för att byta en tunga och stämma. Markus Korhonen där har fixar ett par av mina spel väldigt bra! Rekommenderas om han har tid!
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Pistolkatt - Pistolkatts youtube
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Not so sweet 62
7 posts
Jan 25, 2014
1:31 PM
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Thanks a lot fellows, i really like the harp, and i really want to be able to repair my harps. I will try to change reeds, then new reed plates is my backup plan.
Pistolcat is obviously from Sweden like me, i will check your advice and its nice to see another Sweede harp fellow.
Svenne
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