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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
Accurate bending to pitch
Accurate bending to pitch
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jpmcbride
17 posts
Oct 24, 2013
1:18 PM
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I only post here occasionally, but have been following the forum more lately and thought I would introduce myself to those who don't know me, and ask a question.
Some of you may know me from the Bottle 'O Blues mics I make, others from when I lived in Atlanta and helped run the harmonica club there, and others from the Bushman forum or the Bean Blossom Blues Festival. In any case, I'm enjoying this forum and want to say hello to everyone.
Now a little backgound before my question ...
I've been playing harmonica for a while now (maybe 12+ years, who remembers?) and have played in several bands in blues and classic rock. Several years ago I got into playing bass and have been concentrating on it for the last few years, even playing bass in several bands. I've been neglecting the harmonica in favor of the bass, but am now coming back to the harmonica more. I found that the bass improved my overall ability as a musician by forcing me to really learn songs, chord progressions and rythms, to a level I did not when playing harmonica. I often say, half jokingly, that playing bass is work, but playing harmonica is fun.
After playing bass for a few years I find that now I want to do things on the harmonica that I never thought to do before, and that I struggle to do. An example of this is moving a riff through the changes. Or even playing the bass line on harmonica across the changes. In general, I hear and feel the changes much better than I did before and I want to outline them better on the harmonica than I'm able to do.
The bottom line is that I realize that my bending ability needs a lot of work. I can bend notes of course, and can use the typical 2nd position blues scale bends well enough in a blues context (the flat 5th on 4 draw bend, the flat 7th on 2 draw double bend, the flat 3rd on 3 draw single bend ...). But, the ability to hit all the drawbends to accurate pitch, hold them, and get a strong tone similar to the unbent tone ... this eludes me.
I know there are people that can do this. I've heard plenty of guys that can cleanly seperate all the bends on the 3 draw and get a nice strong tone on all of them. I've also heard a lot of players that think they can do this but are off pitch and have weak airy tone when doing it!
I've been working on this for a while. I've tried playing into a chromatic tuner, but the needle tends to jump too much due to the overtones in the harmonica. So instead of a tuner, I use a keyboard and try to match the pitch. I've also tried playing a melody that requires an accurate and difficult bend and playing it over and over as a way of training to get that pitch accurate.
I'm making some slow progress but am not satisfied with the results so far. I'm looking for suggestions from the more advanced players here on how to approach this. I don't mind putting in the time to learn, I just need some advice in this case on how to approach the process. Do I just keep doing what I'm doing and let time improve it? Should I go back to basics and take a look at my bending technique in general? FYI, I'm a TB'er almost 100%.
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Jim McBride
www.bottleoblues.com
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didjcripey
650 posts
Oct 24, 2013
1:36 PM
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Adam has a great tutorial on bending the three draw with some excellent methods and exercises to practice.
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Lucky Lester
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Frank
3074 posts
Oct 24, 2013
1:43 PM
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Using musical "DRONES" can help immensely with zeroing in... to meditate totally on a particular bend, to concentrate on it, to really focus on it and milk the bent note for all it's worth...
I put a bunch of different keyed drones up for download in another thread, if you can't find them and are interested I will post them again. - Another advantage of drone usage is you have the luxury of also observing physical aspects of what is going on and can take the time to relax into the bent note.
A DRONE is a note that remains in a certain key for 3 to 5 min. or longer...For example - say the drone is in Bb, you will grab your "C" harp and practice strengthening that bent note:)
Last Edited by Frank on Oct 24, 2013 1:45 PM
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Martin
493 posts
Oct 24, 2013
2:50 PM
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Singing the desired bent tone in your head as you strive for it. Sounds strange perhaps but it helps.
Also, and maybe this sounds even more diffuse, approaching the bend with *confidence* -- not hard, mind you, and not anxious, but with a certain *determination* has helped me a lot.
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The Iceman
1228 posts
Oct 24, 2013
4:42 PM
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If you don't have the pitch firmly in your inner ear, you won't be able to tell the harmonica how to speak it.
Technique is technique.
However,
I've found that the hardest part is hearing the note in your mind, solidly. Once that is mastered, the rest is easy.
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The Iceman
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SuperBee
1490 posts
Oct 24, 2013
5:17 PM
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I know Iceman disagrees with the use of a tuner, and I respect his reasoning.
but
2 pro players (Ian Collard, Jimi Lee) have advocated the use of a tuner to me, and the most progress I made quickly was with Jimi,using a Korg CA40. Of course, at some point you have to break from the tuner and rely on your ears, but the tuner helps somehow. In the early phase. Maybe it's just confidence building.
Looking back...I'm trying to recall how JL taught me. I seem to recall he started with getting me to bend it from unbent, all the way to the floor and back up smoothly. I recall him sending me back to the start and making me go over the places where I had 'jumps'. I guess the logic is that if you can bend the note smoothly across the full range,you should be able to stop at any point you choose. And when I could do that (I'm TB all this) then we got into exercises of jumping between the pitches. Some practice jumping from Eb to D for instance, and then some exercises involving the unbent notes to help you hear the relativity of the bent Pitches. So going from (A Harp) E to Eb to D to (blow) C to D to Eb to E. With rhythm.
That's kinda my two hole exercise.
Another thing he emphasised was holding the pitch. Tuner helps you see if you are sliding off it.
Anyway, I know there are others who are nix on the tuner, but it really helped me in that early phase of getting a good handle on the semitones. And the smooth full range exercise really just helped my playing a bunch besides being a necessary precursor to being able to accurately hit the bent notes
Oh and singing. JL I recall had me sing the first 5 notes of a major scale, up and back, then play it in 1st, 2nd, 3rd. Then make it minor.
I'll have to think about that. Oh yeah. So I think it was Playing do ray mi far so far mi ray do in Ist from 4 blow. Then play it in in second, from 2 draw, so you can hear the relative pitches. then make it minor with a b3,
In 1st of course you can't really play it minor with draw bending. But you can play it major with no bends so it's a place to begin.
Then do it in 3rd; you get to play the 2 hole half step and the 3 hole full step, and then hear the difference with the 2 hole full step when you go to minor.. So it's a kind of a neat exercise on a number of levels and I found it slightly addictive and rather fun.
Once you start getting this it is very cool. I may be strange I guess but I really enjoy that shift to the V chord and being able to play those tones.
I hope there is something useful in there for you anyway. I'm sure there are many ways to learn this once you have the 'mechanical' control at your disposal. I think it's probably important to get that right first.
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Last Edited by SuperBee on Oct 24, 2013 5:20 PM
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JInx
600 posts
Oct 24, 2013
5:34 PM
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on beginner levels, one can tune up his bend by listening for it in leabelly vocals. Often he will sing the major third and the ue note in each go round . If u listen for it, you can hear,very clearly, huddie's uinterpretaion of blue 3rd. And you can mimic it on your harp blues
Sun, sun, sun
Burn, burn, burn
Soon, soon, soon
Moon, moon, moonP
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Chris L
21 posts
Oct 24, 2013
10:57 PM
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Hi Jim! Here is an extremely helpful ear training exercise for bending in this video by Lee Sankey. He has a couple of subsequent lessons designed to reinforce accurate bending that are also well worth watching.
Last Edited by Chris L on Oct 24, 2013 11:08 PM
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Chris L
22 posts
Oct 24, 2013
11:03 PM
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Here is my favorite, again from Lee:
Last Edited by Chris L on Oct 24, 2013 11:10 PM
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The Iceman
1231 posts
Oct 25, 2013
6:50 AM
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SuperBee's comments about bending to the floor smoothly and from this learning where to stop to create notes is exactly how I've been teaching this technique for about 10 years now.
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The Iceman
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mr_so&so
747 posts
Oct 25, 2013
10:30 AM
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Jim says: "The bottom line is that I realize that my bending ability needs a lot of work. I can bend notes of course, and can use the typical 2nd position blues scale bends well enough in a blues context (the flat 5th on 4 draw bend, the flat 7th on 2 draw double bend, the flat 3rd on 3 draw single bend ...). But, the ability to hit all the drawbends to accurate pitch, hold them, and get a strong tone similar to the unbent tone ... this eludes me."
I'd recommend breaking out of the blues genre and playing some other scales, e.g. major pentatonic, or major scale, in 1st, 2nd and 3rd positions, and learn some songs based on those. There are some great gospel-type tunes with familiar or easy-to-learn melodies, such as Amazing Grace, People Get Ready, etc. that are major pentatonic. To play those melodies and improvize around them you will need to bend to pitch, and you will hear when you've got it right. Play them in both lower and upper octaves. And play them with tongue-blocked splits and octaves. You'll have fun while you're at it too.
I recently came across the term "major blues scale" to describe the major pentatonic with added blue third as an additional passing tone. For harp, I interpret this as, "In 2nd position, feel free to do lots of bending between the major 3rd (3d) and major 2nd (3d full-step bend)." It's playing with micro-tones in that full-step between major 2nd and major 3rd that gives country music it's twang.
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Last Edited by mr_so&so on Oct 25, 2013 1:43 PM
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Pistolcat
553 posts
Oct 25, 2013
1:17 PM
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I have a hard time getting good intonation in my bending. I have tried using a tuner (halfheartedly) and haven't really got it with the visual, muscular coordination. I have started working with an electric piano instead and I think that it have helped me a lot more. I nee to hear the note I'm bending to, not see it.
Time will tell I guess...
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Pistolkatt - Pistolkatts youtube
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mr_so&so
748 posts
Oct 25, 2013
1:47 PM
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@Pistolcat, that is why scales (and familiar tunes) are so useful. You hear it immediately.
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Frank
3089 posts
Oct 25, 2013
2:53 PM
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Also - when using a drone, if you get tired of practicing a certain bent note with it - you have the freedom to explore full scales relative to the drones pitch and of course improvise as fast or slow as you'd like, and since it is merely droning you really have as much time as you want to play long notes and really HEAR them in context to a pitch :)
Last Edited by Frank on Oct 25, 2013 2:56 PM
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JInx
606 posts
Oct 27, 2013
3:30 PM
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But on an intermediate level level, a good exercise to pitch bending, is to play just one harp ......for a long time. For many moons...and you will learn the sound. If however you are alreadyly giging, you won't gave time for this
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Sun, sun, sun
Burn, burn, burn
Soon, soon, soon
Moon, moon, moon
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walterharp
1203 posts
Oct 27, 2013
8:44 PM
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agree with all of the hearing the tone in your head
but it is a lifetime of work to actually hit them with good tone.. or for me at least!
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harpwrench
708 posts
Oct 28, 2013
8:31 AM
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It's annoying for some here to hear it, but a higher quality custom harmonica will help you with your goals. I think 10+ years is enough time paying your dues.
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The best you know is usually only as good as the best you've had.
Spiers Custom Harmonicas
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HarpNinja
3558 posts
Oct 28, 2013
8:33 AM
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I 100% agree with harpwrench.
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Mantra Customized Harmonicas
My Website
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mr_so&so
749 posts
Oct 28, 2013
9:25 AM
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@Frank, my forum search turned up only one drone in A. Could you provide a link to the other thread you mentioned with more drones? Thanks!
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Frank
3128 posts
Oct 28, 2013
9:47 AM
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Fully agree that higher quality custom harmonica are heavenly..
But, when someone claims they've been playing 5, 10,15,20 years - that can sometimes be deceiving, because years, for some players means they picked it up 10 times in a year, so they have been playing for a year - and realistically that ain't factual...
So the amount of time someone sez they played is only relative to how much of that time they actually spent learning the instrument... not that another year went by and they happen to own a harmonica and fudged with every now and again, so chalk that up as another year of harmonica playing :)
It is fairly obvious once you hear someone play whether or not they have done the shedding necessary to get adequately good at their instrument...
So it ain't the amount of years a player claims they have had playing their axe, It is what they did in those 365 days to actually learn how to play it within those years that truly counts.
Last Edited by Frank on Oct 28, 2013 10:09 AM
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