Dirty-South Blues Harp Forum: For blues harmonica players, students, and fans

Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! > Customizing Fever

Customizing Fever

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MP 2948 posts Oct 03, 2013 3:27 PM	PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT: i love my custom harps but i think too many people learning to play harp get caught up in this mindset web of trying to improve their harps before actually learning to play them. it is a bad idea to waste time and money and energy trying to improve the harp by buying a bunch of tools and customizing it if you are new to the harp. Learn to play the harp before trying to make it do handstands and junk. The best customizers are very good harp players so don't put the cart before the horse. Even if you are an accomplished player it doesn't mean you will be any good at even the simplest repair work. even gapping takes talent. your tool slips and uh ohh!! A lot of the problem comes from videos all over the net showing you how to do this or that and viola! your harp can play itself! Very few videos(the exception is richard sleigh) tell you that you are going to ruin a lot of perfectly fine harmonicas. Embossing can be a total nightmare. i got my hands on RS embossing tool and also the Seydel super dooper fancy UST. Normally i use a socket and a screw driver. i've found that both these newly acquired tools (to me) are more trouble than effective time savers. I'm not slamming these tools. i'm just no good with using oil and shims and the UST. too many steps and they require more accuracy than i care to deal with. Oil or no, One false move and you scallop and gouge and send your reed off center and twisted and, "HEY, WE GOT A MAN DOWN HERE! I didn't do that but saw how easy it is to mess up practicing with them. I'm back to my trusty socket and gas station screw driver where i can emboss in minutes w/ smooth accuracy. first and foremost, i'm a player. i refer to myself as a repair guy because i learned to repair harps out of necessity. Ok, i'll get off of my soap box here but first a show of hands. How many of you folks out there thought you could fix your harp or make it better only to find you failed and/or made it worse? there must be quite a few because i've received many failed gaping, tuning, and reed replacement attempts. have a good day. :-) ---------- MP affordable reed replacement and repairs. "making the world a better place, one harmonica at a time" click user name [MP] for info- repair videos on YouTube. you can reach me via Facebook. Mark Prados
Sherwin 85 posts Oct 03, 2013 4:01 PM	Mark, thank you for your yammering? Narrated videos on reed replacement, I found them very reassuring. I confidently went ahead and successfully replaced a reed (the first of many) shortly after watching your videos. I got customizing fever early on and it has proven helpful in keeping me interested in harmonica. I've never ruined a single harp, and have not taken the advice about working on junk harps, preferring to work on brand new M.B.s figuring a somewhat improved blues band harp is not worth having. I found tuning tedious and slow, a real slog, for a long time, but persevered, and with the help of the excellent article and video offered here on the forum by Andrew Zajac I was able to begin enjoying tuning, now I tune a lot faster and better. Harps are cheap (wreck a few, they make more every day), customizing them is a great rewarding hobby if you have the inclination and dedication. I hope the fever spreads And yes I would say my skill at customizing far exceeds my playing ability, but that's okay for now. My playing is always improving, though not as quickly as my harps are getting better: so be it, great, even if that is the way it continues! Also I think all this customizing has helped my playing. Thanks for the post, love it Sherwin Last Edited by Sherwin on Oct 03, 2013 4:39 PM
dougharps 451 posts Oct 03, 2013 4:08 PM	Over the years I figured out and taught myself to re-tune reeds that were going flat. This was on my own, without instruction, before books and DVDs and the internet, just to keep my harps going. Later I tried a couple reed transplants w/o the proper tools using the same rivet, and failed. I bought better tools. I invested in a Romel reed replacement tool, replaced a reed with the old rivet, and I still don't have it right. I may buy some screws and try some more. Or not... I learned to gap reeds as needed, and then after learning to overblow 4, 5, & 6, I successfully learned to gap other harps to play those overblows. I attended some of Richard Sleigh's classes and saw what was involved in embossing and retuning. I have decided that doing repairs and basic setup are within my ability, and I will continue this. I may end up sending out harps for reed replacement if I continue to have trouble with reed replacement. I will never be a highly skilled customizing technician because of the time needed to achieve competence, and my limitations in doing the fine work needed. Full customizing is just too much work, and too time intensive to take on, even if I could eventually get that good. For me it makes more sense to support skilled customizers who know what they are doing. I have used watches all my life. I can wind them. I can set them. I can replace a watch battery. But I don't build watches or customize their parts. I respect those with the drive, ability, and persistence to become harp customizers. ---------- Doug S.
nacoran 7188 posts Oct 03, 2013 4:21 PM	I gap my harps and haven't ever damaged a harp doing it. I have, on the other hand, destroyed a couple harps trying my hand at embossing (with mixed results when I was successful. Fortunately, I was smart enough to try embossing on a BluesBand. $5 for 20 tries. Better odds than at the fair. Still, I did it more to learn about the harp than to learn to be a harp tech. I do think there is some merit to taking a couple cheap harps apart early in your career, just so you see how things work. I had a friend locally who bought a harp that had one reed that buzzed. He wanted to send it back. I told him to take off the covers and see what was going on. I was able to talk him through fixing a misaligned reed in a couple minutes, and he was up and running. Now, I've also tried retuning a harp with blue gunk. (Clay, I didn't have any blue tack. Yuck, clay tastes bad!) The goal is, eventually, to be able to re-tune to some custom tunings, but that's because I've got junk harps lying around (Piedmonts) that I don't mind ruining if I screw up. I absolutely botched a nail to screw conversion, damaging a custom comb and leaving me with a harp that still doesn't line up well. I'm very happy with my magnetic lid system I made though, but that was because in addition to playing harmonica I like seeing if I an idea works. It does. Now I want someone who can do it better, cleaner and quicker to make me a full set. (You'll also notice, my harp innovation has nearly nothing to do with the sound of a harmonica. While I'm not sure I agree completely that you have to be a great player to tinker with the insides of harps (it certainly helps though, especially for reed work, I'm not as sure for comb work- that's about precision milling more than tinkering), and I think sometimes tinkering inside harps just a little can improve your understanding of the instrument, it's certainly not something everyone needs to do. Some people though, like to take things apart. If it's a choice of which you are going to take apart today- your harmonica or your toaster oven, I guess it's your call. But for cripes sake, don't start out on a good harp! ---------- Nate Facebook Thread Organizer (A list of all sorts of useful threads)
jbone 1378 posts Oct 03, 2013 4:35 PM	I had a period where I drilled, tapped, deburred the reed plates and comb so I could then screw them together and did the same with the covers. Also sealed the combs but other than making sure the reed slots were free of debris and the reeds were aligned, that was it. Problem was, the more efficient air flow characteristics got me MB's that a reed would die pretty quickly. Since MB's didn't have replacement plates at the time I gave up all that. I leave it to the pro's. What I've always wanted is a harp that out of the box works well, sounds good, and needs nothing. I am pretty happy with the Manji since it has fit the bill for me that way. I am still trying to decide if I should send off all my dead harps and maybe get a couple reconditioned ones back. those harps have sat for years some of them but are almost all SP20's, Big Rivers, Delta Frost, and a few oddballs. I don't even know if anyone bothers with them since the MB seems to be the star of the show mostly. ---------- http://www.reverbnation.com/jawboneandjolene https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000386839482 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wa7La7yYYeE
sonny3 45 posts Oct 03, 2013 4:51 PM	There was a time When I was customizing my harps, embossing,opening covers,flatsanding, sealing Combs and such.But i'm finding these things less important.The newer marine band 1896s are really all i need in a harmonica.they are great ootb.Heck i even kinda Like the nails! What little time I have for harmonica has to be spent playing the darn thing.
isaacullah 2522 posts Oct 03, 2013 6:57 PM	My story is the same as yours, sonnyb. When I couldn't play very well, I tinkered. Now that I can play some, well, that's what I do.... ---------- View my videos on YouTube! Check out my songs on Soundcloud! Visit my reverb nation page!
SuperBee 1455 posts Oct 03, 2013 6:58 PM	I concur Mark. I have damaged fine harps due to clumsy gapping and attempts to realign reeds with makeshift and inappropriate tools. You fixed my A crossover which I broke when I had a moment of inattention while fine tuning a gap. But thankfully those incidents have been rare. I can't send my harps off to Hawaii everytime something goes wrong so I decided to get some appropriate tools and make my own repairs. So far so good. I've just done a couple of repairs for a kind lady who sent me a box of broken Sp20s to practice on and cannibalise.. Tuning I still find challenging but at the moment all my kit is back in action. I'm just repairing and tweaking. I guess it's customising by definition when i reset a gap, change a comb or open a cover, but I'm just tweaking rather than trying to optimise. I haven't sanded a draw plate yet, or embossed a slot...although I have de-embossed one so it would take a standard length reed again... But on the whole I agree. I'm still learning a lot about playing the instrument but I'm 16 or so years into it and I'm not hung up on customising. Just seems a fairly natural progression and satisfying to make things work properly again.. ---------- JellyShakersFacebookPage JellyShakersTipJar
walterharp 1188 posts Oct 03, 2013 7:09 PM	all part of the learning curve. if you get a custom harp then it is pretty clear any problems lie in you. but learning how your instrument works and what makes it better is part of becoming a better harp player. the cool thing is that you can take a $20 harp and turn it into a $100 harp with modest attention and destroying a few in the process. it is kind of like home brewing beer. it does not take much to make beer as good as the top dollar beers out there with attention to detail
GMaj7 290 posts Oct 03, 2013 8:38 PM	I'm with you Mark.. ! My dad always said that if someone tells you that you need something, it is a safe bet they are selling it.. I think the custom harmonica market is over rated and the harps are rarely over blown.. The quality of current stock harps is great.. Although I will acknowledge the valid need for adjustments in tuning and temperament for those who are skilled enough to record... or play jazz/bluegrass..I guess that would be a form of customization.. (Edited to correct spelling error on 1st line) ---------- Greg Jones 16:23 Custom Harmonicas greg@1623customharmonicas.com 1623customharmonicas.com Last Edited by GMaj7 on Oct 03, 2013 8:39 PM
hooktool 94 posts Oct 03, 2013 8:51 PM	I know how to play well enough to appreciate a harp that plays evenly with minimal effort up and down the harp-like they really should, but often don't. Can I make it do that? Sometimes, if its just gapping that is needed. MP will make one play like a dream for not much money-he's done several for me.
groyster1 2415 posts Oct 03, 2013 10:44 PM	I sent a sp20 to you where I changed the stock comb to a hetrick...I was quite torqued but you fixed the leak that the change caused....I ended up changing several sp20 combs to hetricks and 2 big rivers that made their notorious leak disappear....I have had some success gapping but have only watched it on video...I only want to do it if I know I can do it right
HarveyHarp 519 posts Oct 03, 2013 11:18 PM	Greg, that is satire, right? Sometimes I can't tell with you. Surely you jest. ---------- HarveyHarp
chromaticblues 1475 posts Oct 04, 2013 6:19 AM	Here is a quote from Joe Filisko from about 20 years ago. Most people that buy custom harmonicas don't need them and the people that do need them can't afford them! OK my take on the matter. I think all stock harmonicas have inherint problems. If you can't explain what is wrong with a harmonica then why do you need a better one? When you get to the point where the harmonica won't do what you want then you should pry around in there and try to figure it out. There is so much on the web about working on harps that just explain almost everything. Just gapping and tuning is the beginning. If you can do that you can probably sand a draw plate flat. Opening cover plates isn't hard! Does it need to be done? NO It does change the sound. I like SP 20's and I like them better with the covers opened. That's just me. Now here's where it gets tricky and this is where the real playability comes from. Setting the shape of the reed and centering in the slot. I know that sounds so easy, but I only emboss old Marine Bands because The harps play so well when set right. I too believe they are ment to be played not fiddled with on a daily bassis! I'll touch on another thing Mark mentioned. You HAVE to be a very good harmonica player to be a proficent customizer! A harmonica does not need to be altered if you can't play beyond the harmonicas capabilities! Word! A perfect example is the whole harmonica comb market? I don't get that! It's not a guitar nobody can see your pretty comb! I understand why it started. The Marine Band being so popular and made from soft wood that wasn't sanded or treated at all. So there was a real need for better combs. That I totally agree with. OK lets just say it has evolved slightly from that. It don't make me no never mind! I like SP 20 combs and I get one every time I buy a harp. It's a pretty good deal!
HarpNinja 3507 posts Oct 04, 2013 7:01 AM	I spend more time on the first six reeds than anything else. Last I checked, those are pretty critical reeds for the vast majority of players in the US, and that doesn't have anything to do with overbending. ---------- Mantra Customized Harmonicas My Website
HarpNinja 3508 posts Oct 04, 2013 7:09 AM	Even if you're not big into gapping, everyone should be able to do basic tuning and reed replacement. You can buy the tools to do the job for the price of a new harp or two. They are a great investment. I almost always use a fresh rivet when replacing reeds, but to get a screw and tap isn't very expensive relatively speaking. ---------- Mantra Customized Harmonicas My Website
HarveyHarp 521 posts Oct 04, 2013 7:57 AM	Ah So. Mr. Ninja. Sissy (Remember Her) has showed us how to replace reeds using a new rivet, but it takes me longer to do that than to use a 0-80 screw. Now when I use a donar reed from an old harp, and I have hundreds, I use the original rivet, because if you are slick (see MP's Video) the rivet stays in the reed and it is just a matter of just hammering it in(with some preleminaries) most of the time. Of course, that is just on Hohners, to my knowledge. So, if you have a quick and easy method, or have develped a tool to do it in one quick squeeze, please share it. Perhaps a video on how to attach a reed with a new rivet. ---------- HarveyHarp
HarpNinja 3509 posts Oct 04, 2013 8:08 AM	Richard Sleigh has a great vid on this if you are on his mailing list. I find reusing rivets to be inconsistent. They sometimes end up being loose or off centered. I also frequently use fresh reeds from Hohner and not recycled reeds. I pull the reed, flatten the reed plate with a flat punch, anvil, and small hammer. I then push the new rivet up through the reedplate. Next, I put the reed on and try my best to center it and tape it down. I then hammer the new rivet head while checking the alignment...if I get off center, which rarely happens, I can recenter either using a file on the rivet or the angle at which I hammer. It takes maybe as much time as taping the plate, opening the hole on the reed, etc. I am not sure I have a camera that can capture the process with a good angle/view. Reusing a rivet can be fast, but it isn't always precise or effective. Lots of times the reed swings too freely. ***I find I generally save time vs. a screw as I don't have to ream a reed (which can easily distort the reed), and centering is more stable. I find the reed slides so much with a screw that I wish I had a third hand. I also don't have to worry about punching through the back of a reed plate making it difficult to use a light box and requiring me to snip down part of a screw. It also looks like @$$ to have a screw head poking out of the comb slot on the blow plate. ---------- Mantra Customized Harmonicas My Website Last Edited by HarpNinja on Oct 04, 2013 8:15 AM
arzajac 1160 posts Oct 04, 2013 8:31 AM	There are three ways to replace a reed. #1 re-using the donor rivet #2 using a new rivet #3 using a screw I can do #2 the very fastest. I can change a half-dozen reeds in about ten minutes total using this method. I can potentially get the same result using method number one, but if you miss and the reed goes in crooked (they usually do if you harvest the reed from Hohners from the "Bad" period - that's been my experience anyway) then you are committed to fixing the damage and having to use a screw. I never use method number 1. The big drawback to the two methods is that they distort the reed plate, this is a problem more for the blow plate than the draw plate. The screw method is slower. It would take me about 15-20 minutes to replace a half-dozen reeds that way. Not a huge difference but it can add up. That being said, I get more requests for using a screw than for using a rivet. I don't know why. I think people are under the impression that they could just change the reed again in the future if it was replaced with a screw. It's not that easy. And I would never re-use the screw. I use longer screws because they are easy to manipulate and snip them off once installed. Who wants to struggle with a 2.5mm-long screw? Not to mention the reed shape is certainly completely wrong at this point. You can't replace reeds unless you know how to shape them. Well, you can but it probably will play funny. When I flatsand the blow plate and need to remove all the reeds, I must use screws and aim for it being a 30-minute job from start to finish. I can't count on that time but that's the ballpark. The screw method is the only method I would recommend someone to learn. I say this because if you are not going to be doing lots of reed replacements, you wan't the security of knowing you can get the job done and not have to risk the 1-in-5 or 1-in-20 chance the reed will not go in straight. As far as customizing, I think airtightness is fundamental. It's a completely different type of work than reedwork, but it has the most impact. That and the correction of obvious reed shape problems should get most people where they want to be. At that point, bang-on tuning will make playing the harp cause your hair on the back of your neck to stand up. If I had to pick only one more thing it would be reed shape over embossing. Definitely. ---------- Custom overblow harps. Harmonica service and repair. Last Edited by arzajac on Oct 04, 2013 8:38 AM
Baker 335 posts Oct 04, 2013 9:14 AM	I spent a long time figuring out how to flat sand and seal the combs on MB. Flat sand the draw plate (I did experiment with removing all the reeds on the blow plate and flat sanding that too) – Emboss, set the reed profiles, tip scoop, gap, open the cover plates and tune. And yes I ruined lots of harps trying to figure this all out, however I am a natural tinker and did get some pleasure out of this process. I also think that I now have a better understanding of how it all works which I feel is important in the learning process. Also it means if I get a blocked reed or something I can fix it pretty easily. However, I now find this all a massive pain, and after all that I realised that I don't actually like the sound of a harp that has had embossing done. I also realised that as I don't overblow, that a lot of this process is really unnecessary. These days I buy custom combs, sand the draw plate, open the backs of the cover plates and do some gapping and tuning if needed. Even this is find to be a massive faff. Also I can get everything I want out of an OOTB box harp, it just feels a little less natural than one I've set up, but by no means is it not possible to achieve the tone and control I'm after. I also agree that until you've spent time with OOTB harps learning to play, you don't really know what you want out of a set up
JInx 558 posts Oct 04, 2013 9:24 AM	I think every serious harper should know how to tune. If you rely on others (factory or customizers, repair guys etc) you gonna run into a problem of consistency. They all tune with their own personal embouchure or apparatus. And causally, require a different resultant embouchure adjustment from the end user. If you are into playing with good intonation, a consistent tuning method is required. ---------- Sun, sun, sun Burn, burn, burn Soon, soon, soon Moon, moon, moon
isaacullah 2523 posts Oct 04, 2013 9:45 AM	I'll expand on my overly terse original response to the OP. As with all things in life, I think that there is a trajectory to the harmonica lifestyle that most of us here on the forum live. Here's mine: Many of us were absolute beginners when we stumbled across the treasure trove of kudzurunner vids on YT. We knew NOTHING about the harp, how it worked, or how to play it. We were scared to even open it up, lest we somehow break the magic packed into this impossibly small instrument. But, you started to hear stuff about "overblows" and how the reeds needed to be "adjusted" to make them happen. Dare I pop the hood and take a look? No way! I was too chicken shit to try it... I mean, I paid $25 for this thing, I ain't gonna screw it up! Then, there was that video where Doc Gussow takes his trusty swiss army knife, prises up the lids of his 'ol marine band, and use a reciept to gently lift the reeds and open the gap. Ah! What a revelation that was! It's not rocket science! I could DO this! As if on cue, Mr. David Payne then begins making his videos, actually giving away the secrets to basic harp maintenance and modification. Other than a very few details in Steve Baker's "Harp Handbook", I had not ever even heard of doing most of what he was showing... From an ill-advised former purchase, I happened to have a full set of Johnson Blues Kings languishing. I used those bad boys as my guinea pigs. I tried gasketing them, I practiced embossing, I tried "arcing" reeds, I tried filing "scoops" at the slot tips, I retuned, I replace reeds, I bent back covers. In short, I killed about half of them with silly mistakes and overzealous attempts at ultimately useless techniques. In the end, I was out probably $20 in cheapo harps. Funny thing is that I still have (and play) four of these guys. It was at this time, through this very forum, through discussion thread about customizing, that I met our late friend, the Buddha. Turns out, Mr. Michalek was just down the road from where I lived: Did I want to come hang out in his shop sometime? You bet I did! That's when I really learned all the stuff that customizers did to their harps, and that's when I got the guts to start working on my good harps. Chris gave me some combs, and showed me a lot, and I went to town on several of my main harps, which are still in my arsenal to this day. I should mention now that I really couldn't play worth a darn this whole time. I mean, looking back on it now, I just plain sucked. It was a sort of plateau; I wasn't getting much better at playing the thing, so I spent waaaay too much of my limited free time futzing with the darn things (not to mention on the electronics that became my other hobby). I should have been practising, I suppose, but at least I was doing stuff related to the harp, that kept me interested in it. I think that if I hadn't had "customizing fever" at that time, I might have quit. So I'm glad I had it. Fast forward to these days. I'm over that plateau (and a couple others that followed it), and I'm further down the road. I finally feel like I can "play the darn thing", and I'm starting to make the music I've been hearing in my head. Now, when I look at my harps, the equation that goes through my head is not "What are ALL the things I could do to these guys to make them play better?". Instead, it's "What is the MINIMUM I have to do to these things so that I can play the music I want to play?". My answer is different for different situations, but I've leaned more towards basic set up and alternate tunings over detailed customization and required overblown notes. Continued... Last Edited by isaacullah on Oct 04, 2013 11:41 AM
isaacullah 2524 posts Oct 04, 2013 9:49 AM	I spend most of my "free" time these days actually playing the things. Working on songs, working with my recording set up, and making music. I think the most involved I get with a harp is to gap it, retune it (usually with blutak), and make sure any rattly reeds are centered and their rivets are tight. I don't even bother much with flat-sanding, unless its so airy that I can't make it work. In short, I think my basic technique has evolved to the point where I really don't need much modding to make a harp playable in a "normal" fashion (natural notes and normal bends). Now, do I regret all the time and effort put into learning customization? Nah. Not really. I'm glad I know what I know, and I'm glad I learned it when I did. Do I think all beginners need a custom harp? Nope. Do they need a harp that plays well? Yeah, they sure do. Should they learn how to fix harps themselves? Well, if they're poor like I am, then they better should. If they've got money to burn, well, who am I to tell 'em not to burn it? ---------- View my videos on YouTube! Check out my songs on Soundcloud! Visit my reverb nation page! Last Edited by isaacullah on Oct 04, 2013 11:41 AM
mr_so&so 743 posts Oct 04, 2013 11:00 AM	@isaac, I enjoyed reading your history, and agree with your assessment. I'd rather play and do the minimum necessary to make my harps do what I need them to do to support my musical muse. I started playing (well, learning) at the same time as Isaac. My trajectory has been more about playing than tinkering, both with harp mods and equipment. It took me a number of years of sticking to learning to play how and what I wanted before I even ran into the limitations from my cheapo Big River harps. I had made a few timid attempts to gap my harps for OBs a few years back, and eventually I stumbled across a harp that it worked on. I then spent more than a year working the 6OB, on that one harp, into my playing before I wanted to go further and see what the 4 and 5 OB could do (or if I could do them). I eventually got there with some more gapping using Joe Spiers' method from his videos. Now I have more than one harp that plays the way I want and I didn't break anything. I'm now curious about what a customizer could build for me. I'm going to pay for that experience because I'd rather use my time playing than working on harps. ----------
nacoran 7194 posts Oct 04, 2013 11:59 AM	I remember there used to be an old example of economics, when Microsoft was really first tearing up the stock exchange. They pointed out, that Bill Gates was making money so fast that if he saw a $1000 bill laying on the ground it didn't make financial sense for him to bend over to pick it up. His time was worth more than that. (Obviously, that's an oversimplification. If he's walking down the street, his money in the stock market is making money whether he bends over to pick up the $1000 or not. It's not a zero sum proposition.) If 9/10 OTB Crossovers are great harps, and you have lots of money, buy enough spares that you don't have to worry about it and don't waste your time on learning to fix them (unless it's something that you'd also enjoy.) If you are mechanically disinclined enough that you'll send more harps to the graveyard than you'll save, don't tinker (unless it's something that you'd also enjoy and you can afford). In my price range, usually the difference between a $30 harp and a $60 harp is a dealbreaker for a tiny improvement in sound. Cost wise, if, OTB the good harps are good 90% of the time and the $30 harps are good 80% of the time, I'm better off buying $30 harps. At some point though, my checkbook (well, not my checkbook, but someone with lots of cash's checkbook!) buying anything but the best is like stopping to pick up that $1000. It's a waste of time. (My finances have at least improved to the point where I can biggie size a value meal without worrying... well, at least not the cost. I still have to watch the calories!) Now, here is another model for costs- buy a lot of used harps on eBay. Pick the good one's out and sterilize them- if you've got spare combs that only you have slobbered on, use those instead, and send the busted ones to someone for repair (or do it yourself). Even if you get a new comb, you are probably going to come out under the price of a new harp, as long as you do enough to make postage worthwhile. I'm sitting on some pre-MS Blues Harps that I'm trying to decide if I want to try to convert to screws myself or send out. As for pretty combs, they aren't really that expensive as long as you think of them as something you are going to salvage from any broken harps, and they do help you grab the right harp in the dark, and well, just because the audience doesn't see them doesn't mean I don't. How many stickers can the audience actually read from the crowd on the guitar players axe? ---------- Nate Facebook Thread Organizer (A list of all sorts of useful threads)
HarpNinja 3510 posts Oct 04, 2013 12:23 PM	Joe Spiers aka HarpWrench has a great signature line. ---------- Mantra Customized Harmonicas My Website
Frank 2901 posts Oct 04, 2013 12:52 PM	I started working on harps very early on. And as I fell deeper and deeper into the abyss of harp addiction – and read info that it was possible to fix them, it just made perfect sense to me that learning to work on them was the appropriate thing to do – especially since my plan was to play the damn things as often as possible. Also for me personally – it seemed the normal thing to do… But, I realized early on that I was the exception to the rule. When I would tell players I fixed my harps and didn’t throw them in the trash – they looked at me like I was nuts, mind you this is 15 or 20 years ago. I would save everything nuts bolts – every part of my harps were salvaged – especially reed plates. Again doing this seemed the natural thing to do and learning to fix them never occurred to me should be rocket science. So I went ahead and did what the Blackie Schackner said to do and I was on my way. I sought out more learning material- continued playing and working on my harps and for me it just became second nature and seemed normal for a harp player to do and want to do. But again – other players seemed to view it as voodoo, strange – and beyond comprehension. And I’m sure it may be a big difficult pain in the ass for some people, but my experience is it is a procedure that is very doable and can be rather enjoyable…And I believe the skills for fixing most ailments that plague a harmonica are in reach and obtainable for the majority of players who have a strong desire as well as the focus and patience to learn.
MP 2950 posts Oct 04, 2013 1:00 PM	From Harvey, ." Now when I use a donar reed from an old harp, and I have hundreds, I use the original rivet, because if you are slick (see MP's Video) the rivet stays in the reed and it is just a matter of just hammering it in(with some preleminaries) most of the time. Of course, that is just on Hohners, to my knowledge." Thanks Harvey, You must be pretty slick yourself to pull off that trick consistently. I just sorta stumbled upon it. I was just so sick of screws and threading and i had a hammer in my hand and hit the damn plate out of frustration. Then VIOLA! i tried it over and over again till i figured out how to center them and how hard to hit. If you hit too hard and the rivet squashes and the reed pulls left or right. My video doesn't show my centering trick. (my bad),somehow it got left out. the reed has to be absolutely centered prior to whacking it in. I don't think Greg is pulling your leg. We talk about once a month and of course the topic is mostly repair stuff. He does have a great sense of humor. Some of the topics we agree on would be considered absolute heresy. if you need advice he is the man. Greg has been playing for quite a long time and he has seen everything under the sun. Every single problem or advantage a harmonica could possibly have. he is able to determine what tweaks are unnecessary and do nothing to improve a harps playability but amazingly are seen as gospel cuz somebody well respected said so. ---------- MP affordable reed replacement and repairs. "making the world a better place, one harmonica at a time" click user name [MP] for info- repair videos on YouTube. you can reach me via Facebook. Mark Prados Last Edited by MP on Oct 04, 2013 1:42 PM
HarveyHarp 524 posts Oct 04, 2013 1:23 PM	@MP. Are we talking about the same Greg? GMaj7? I did not think he was old enough to be playing for four decades. I have been replacing reeds since the first time I got an F&R Farrell catalog. I don't do it his way anymore, however. Its not Rocket Science, though I have never been able to teach anyone how to work on harps, though I have tried. It takes desire, patience, steady hands and the ability to figure out how things work. Being able to blow harp helps too. ---------- HarveyHarp
Frank 2902 posts Oct 04, 2013 1:37 PM	Yeah - Mr. Farrell would send harmonicas to your door before you even paid for them - he eventually stopped doing that. I remember calling Al Eichler...he put out a very cool little harmonica magazine you would get every month. Any way - I got him on the phone and Al loved to talk - so I'm sharing my stories about fixing harps and why isn’t there more and better instruction - not long after that Rupert Oysler came on the scene and shed a lot of light on the subject, Douglas tate had a couple cool books to that helped and of course NOW Richard Sleigh has done an astonishing job documenting on VIDEO as well as paper and book how much of this is accomplished :) Last Edited by Frank on Oct 04, 2013 1:42 PM
MP 2951 posts Oct 04, 2013 1:40 PM	Maybe i got his age wrong. i thought he was my age. i'll correct it and say he's been at it a long time. I should be more careful and not make assumptions. My bad. i've only been replacing reeds for a very short time compared to you and Frank. seven years? though i did put an SP/20 reed on a Marine Band back in 91. sheer luck. i used a pin for a rivet. And you are right. it's not rocket science. this topic sure started a lot of discussion though. i'm surprised at the success level of a lot of the posters. ---------- MP affordable reed replacement and repairs. "making the world a better place, one harmonica at a time" click user name [MP] for info- repair videos on YouTube. you can reach me via Facebook. Mark Prados Last Edited by MP on Oct 04, 2013 2:06 PM
MP 2952 posts Oct 04, 2013 1:46 PM	My Rupert Oysler piece of reed plate brass is still my fav tool. i did sharpen one end to plink with just lately. i prefer it over hook tools which don't fit so well in stock Sp/20 and GM combs. ---------- MP affordable reed replacement and repairs. "making the world a better place, one harmonica at a time" click user name [MP] for info- repair videos on YouTube. you can reach me via Facebook. Mark Prados
joe 102 posts Oct 04, 2013 9:56 PM	hi MP ... i hope you will excuse my impudence but i offer a html formatted version of your profile in the hope that you will accept harmonicas for service from Oz when you can. <br> GOT A GREAT HARP BUT A REED IS BLOWN? <br><br> DON"T HAVE THE TOOLS,TIME, OR INCLINATION TO FIX IT YOURSELF? <br><br> i understand, you just wanna play, DAMN IT!<br><br> lemme deal with it here at MARKS HARMONICA TUNE-UP!<br><br> INDIVIDUAL REED REPLACEMENT $12.50 plus shipping.<br> if more than one is blown(unlikely) $5 per.<br><br> will do the following HOHNER models:<br> GM,SP/20, MB 1896, MB DELUXE, and MB CROSSOVER.<br><br> NOW ALSO DOING MS HOHNERS-BIG RIVER,BLUES HARP,PRO HARP, MEISTERKLASSE,CROSSHARP and BLUE MIDNIGHT.<br><br> will open back covers on request for no extra charge on SP/20s and MB models.<br><br> SHIPPING US ONLY.<br> small bulk rate box from post office about $6(fits a lot of harps w/out cases)<br> there are medium sized ones for large orders that will fit about 20+ harps.<br> flat rate box is about $12<br> The more harps you send the more you save. <br> ALSO, get the medium squarish box, not the shallow rectangular one.<br><br> i accept personal checks or money orders. <br> can't rob peter to paypal:) <br> also, cash is always in good taste. :-) <br><br> Please send relatively clean Harmonicas, thank you. :o) <br> just wipe them down w/ alcohol and a rag and scrape off gunk. <br><br> contact info; <br> e-mail markprados@aol.com <br> you can also reach me via Facebook Mark Prados but i prefer e-mails. <br> thanks. <br><br> my band is called Mark Prados and His Enablers<br> we have various YouTube videos, and i just started a harmonica repair series on YouTube also. <br> see Harmonica Reed Replacement 101 (parts one and two.) <br><br> ADDRESS - <br> MARK PRADOS 918 HAUSTEN ST. APT. G HONOLULU,HI 96826 <br><br> "making the world a better place, one harmonica at a time" <br> -- which would show as: GOT A GREAT HARP BUT A REED IS BLOWN? DON"T HAVE THE TOOLS,TIME, OR INCLINATION TO FIX IT YOURSELF? i understand, you just wanna play, DAMN IT! lemme deal with it here at MARKS HARMONICA TUNE-UP! INDIVIDUAL REED REPLACEMENT $12.50 plus shipping. if more than one is blown(unlikely) $5 per. will do the following HOHNER models: GM,SP/20, MB 1896, MB DELUXE, and MB CROSSOVER. NOW ALSO DOING MS HOHNERS-BIG RIVER,BLUES HARP,PRO HARP, MEISTERKLASSE,CROSSHARP and BLUE MIDNIGHT. will open back covers on request for no extra charge on SP/20s and MB models. SHIPPING US ONLY. small bulk rate box from post office about $6(fits a lot of harps w/out cases) there are medium sized ones for large orders that will fit about 20+ harps. flat rate box is about $12 The more harps you send the more you save. ALSO, get the medium squarish box, not the shallow rectangular one. i accept personal checks or money orders. can't rob peter to paypal:) also, cash is always in good taste. :-) Please send relatively clean Harmonicas, thank you. :o) just wipe them down w/ alcohol and a rag and scrape off gunk. contact info; e-mail markprados@aol.com you can also reach me via Facebook Mark Prados but i prefer e-mails. thanks. my band is called Mark Prados and His Enablers we have various YouTube videos, and i just started a harmonica repair series on YouTube also. see Harmonica Reed Replacement 101 (parts one and two.) ADDRESS - MARK PRADOS 918 HAUSTEN ST. APT. G HONOLULU,HI 96826 "making the world a better place, one harmonica at a time" regards joe m. ---------- UTC+1 Last Edited by joe on Oct 04, 2013 10:02 PM
MP 2954 posts Oct 05, 2013 2:20 PM	hello joe whaddaya know? :-) yes, I really should start a paypal acct. nothing personal or xenophobic re OZ but i'm just not that interested in increasing my work load. it stresses me out and makes my turn-a-round time as long as everybody elses. my strengths are that i'm inexpensive and have a short waiting list. in fact, there is nothing on my bench today. kinda nice actually. PS. I promise i'll start a paypal acct. and start doing international orders even though I believe one saves money having a local person repair their harps. have a good one, Mark ---------- MP affordable reed replacement and repairs. "making the world a better place, one harmonica at a time" click user name [MP] for info- repair videos on YouTube. you can reach me via Facebook. Mark Prados Last Edited by MP on Oct 05, 2013 2:24 PM
Joe_L 2351 posts Oct 13, 2013 9:52 AM	"i love my custom harps but i think too many people learning to play harp get caught up in this mindset web of trying to improve their harps before actually learning to play them. " This doesn't surprise me. It is quite common to have harp customizers write things on Internet forums like, the Suzuki Manji or Marine Band Deluxe is completely unplayable out of the box. It is far easier to attempt to buy one's way into being a good player, than to actually do the work necessary to become a good player. I met a guy that had several B-Radicals in a variety of keys. He couldn't play them, but he owned them because they were very playable instruments. He looked at my collection of Hohner MS harps and asked how can you play those shitty things? The same way he played his, by putting them in my mouth. Sure, more money will get a person a better quality instrument, but if the sound coming out of the instrument is no good. The money is wasted. There is a theory among a multitude of players that if a person learns to play lower quality harps properly (using appropriate breath control) transitioning to higher quality harps is much, much easier. I tend to agree. People who go from high quality instruments to lower quality harps don't make that transition easily. ---------- The Blues Photo Gallery
Kingley 3198 posts Oct 13, 2013 10:16 AM	"There is a theory among a multitude of players that if a person learns to play lower quality harps properly (using appropriate breath control) transitioning to higher quality harps is much, much easier. I tend to agree." I also agree with that.
arzajac 1179 posts Oct 13, 2013 10:49 AM	Can someone show me some evidence that playing a bad harmonica makes you a better player? I see no reason why the harmonica is different than any other instrument in that respect. The better the instrument, the easier/better/faster you will learn - there is no benefit to playing a lower quality harp for the sake of the challenge. In fact, I'm sure many people give up on the harp out of frustration related to playing a poor instrument. I would also say that playing a bad instrument creates bad habits that are very hard to break, such as the propensity to blow out reeds. "Last but not least, play on the best instrument that you can afford and study with the finest teachers available." - Jamey Aebersold. I've heard the same thing from every harmonica, piano, guitar teacher I have every met. These are people who follow their students throughout their progress and can testify that there is a correlation between playing a bad instrument and slowed progress. ---------- Custom overblow harps. Harmonica service and repair. Last Edited by arzajac on Oct 13, 2013 10:49 AM
arzajac 1180 posts Oct 13, 2013 10:52 AM	"It is quite common to have harp customizers write things on Internet forums like, the Suzuki Manji or Marine Band Deluxe is completely unplayable out of the box." I think the consensus is that about one in ten are excellent and one in ten are really bad. They other eight are usually fine but still not as good as they could be. Also, the quality of out-of-the-box Hohners has never been higher. ---------- Custom overblow harps. Harmonica service and repair. Last Edited by arzajac on Oct 13, 2013 11:06 AM
Kingley 3199 posts Oct 13, 2013 11:51 AM	"Can someone show me some evidence that playing a bad harmonica makes you a better player?" Andrew firstly no one apart from you mentioned using a "bad harmonica". What we're referring too is using an average out of the box harps like the MS, SP20, MB, etc. It has more to do with learning correct muscle memory and breathing techniques than anything else. Let's take the guitar as an example. If a player doesn't spend time learning on or playing an acoustic and goes straight to electric then they often don't develop the strength in their fingers to play many of the techniques correctly like bar chords for example. What this means is that they skip steps and miss huge parts of the essentials of foundation building. Also if the time comes when they have to play an acoustic with a higher action and heavier strings than the electric they are used to they often won't be able to do so, due to that lack of foundational skills. It's the same thing with an out of the box harp vs a custom. Of course I expect you to disagree with that train of thought as it's in your vested interest for beginners to buy custom harps from you. Now learning on a custom harp isn't a "it's bad, evil and you must not do it" type of thing. What it means is that for example, if a situation arises where a player is in the situation of not having the luxury of those custom harps available for whatever reason. Then they will often struggle to play those out of the box harps due to not having built the foundational techniques of playing on them first. There are of course many schools of thought regarding playing the harmonica. This is just one of them. Most of the time none of those schools are 100% right and none are 100% wrong. It's simply a viewpoint shared by many individuals who come from that school.
Joe_L 2353 posts Oct 13, 2013 1:58 PM	Personally, when I started playing harmonicas were pretty inexpensive. I blew out a lot of reeds due to poor technique. Since, it was the 80's, everyone playing was using the same low quality Hohners. There were no resources to tell me that I was blowing too hard or that the instrument quality was at an all time low. If I had been spending twice as much on "higher quality" instruments, I would have quit sooner. I wouldn't have had the financial resources to keep buying custom instruments. People say the same crap about microphones and amplifiers, too. They don't play through less than perfect equipment at home. They believe all of the stuff they read. When they get on a stage and play through a solid state PA trying to cup an SM58, they wonder why they sound like crap. It's time to buy a pedal. It's very simple, They didn't practice on anything other than really good equipment. If a person wants to sound good, really good, their time is much better spent practicing and learning to play the instrument than spending an equivalent amount of time working on their instruments in the hopes that they will somehow be able pull some decent sounds out of them. There is no substitute for practice. Generations of great players learned on out of the box harps. ---------- The Blues Photo Gallery Last Edited by Joe_L on Oct 13, 2013 1:59 PM
arzajac 1181 posts Oct 13, 2013 2:04 PM	Kingley, I am responding to you despite your unfriendly comment around my vested interests (in beginners buying custom harps from me). The truth is poor technique is the main reason why reeds blow and in the long run, I would make much more money from one person replacing reeds at $15 a pop than at selling them one custom harp. I have been advocating well-playing harps since before I started offering my services for profit. The truth is, no matter what side of this argument I am on, someone could accuse me of profiting. Both of us have the same motivation, we want beginners to have the best shot at enjoying playing harp and becoming proficient. You speak of muscle memory and foundational skills. I absolutely agree with you. Where we disagree is in comparing an out-of-the-box harp versus custom harp to an acoustic guitar versus electric guitar. Apples and oranges. Here's why: Some harps from the factory are excellent while some are bad. They are inconsistent. That's a huge problem for a beginner. "Is it me or is it the harp?" How do you teach a raw beginner how to gap a harp when they are not even able to play a single sealed note? How long does it take someone to learn how to bend notes on the high end? Would it be safe to say the average timeframe is a year? It's pretty unlikely that an out-of-the-box harp plays the upper bends smoothly. And since you need to know how to play those bends to properly adjust the gaps, you are putting the raw beginner in an almost impossible situation because they will have a very hard time figuring whether it's them or the harp. And speaking of gapping, I think it's safe to say that proponents of the school of thought supporting factory-harps-only encourage gapping those harps for best performance. That's a bit of a contradiction. If you think that on out-of-the-box harp is an opportunity to build muscle, why not encourage beginners to gap their harps so that they are even harder to play? I think the analogy between acoustic versus electric harps is relevant, but I think it's more accurate if you compare an acoustic harp to a lower-keyed harp. Scales and arpeggios build muscle memory. Practising on low, medium and high keys are essential to develop foundational skills. But practising on an inconsistent harp or any other instrument is not a recipe for success. Are all out-of-the-box harps bad? Of course not. But the problem is that you cannot guarantee that a factory harp is a "good" one. If you could, I would definitely encourage beginners to use them. ---------- Custom overblow harps. Harmonica service and repair.
Kingley 3203 posts Oct 13, 2013 2:27 PM	"I am responding to you despite your unfriendly comment around my vested interests (in beginners buying custom harps from me)" Andrew it wasn't an unfriendly comment at all, merely a factual one. As someone who sells his services making customised harmonicas amongst other harmonica based services of course you have a vested interest in people using your services and/or buying your products. That's just common business sense and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. As to out of the box harps. I played like Joe through the 1980's when Hohners harps were of very poor quality. For at least the first fifteen years of playing I didn't even know about gapping harps or any other things to make harps play better. heck I didn't even know what a bullet mic was for at least the first five or six years. I simply wanted to learn how to play the damn thing. I did that by sheer hard work and building muscle memory. Like Joe says "There is no substitute for practice. Generations of great players learned on out of the box harps.". Like I've already stated it's just one school of thought amongst many. It's not right and it's not wrong. It's simply one path that can be taken to reach a goal. It just happens to be the path that the vast majority of players in the history of this instrument have taken.
tmf714 2092 posts Oct 13, 2013 2:33 PM	I learned to play an electric guitar before an acoustic-its knowing where the notes and chords lay on the fretboard,and finger positioning/picking is critical. I can play electric,acoustic and bass guitar with the same amount of ease-the action is where the difference lies-different actions and setups require different fingering and picking techniques. Not rocket science. But-if your not a guitar player,you probably have no idea. Last Edited by tmf714 on Oct 13, 2013 2:35 PM
sonny3 54 posts Oct 13, 2013 3:44 PM	I would say out of the last 10 new hohners i've bought they have all been good to excellent.I started playing in the mid 90's and the harps i bought were horrible, so bad that I gave up for years.To my surprise when I started back I could actually play these new Harps.I think a beginner would do well with any new hohner.A certain level of instrument is needed for beginners but I think there is something to be said for having to work for it. Think it builds chops.Like lifting heavy weights makes everything easier later on.I play marine band 1896'a cause all my hero's did.
MP 2966 posts Oct 14, 2013 1:12 PM	"it is a bad idea to waste time and money and energy trying to improve the harp by buying a bunch of tools and customizing it if you are new to the harp. Learn to play the harp before trying to make it do handstands and junk. The best customizers are very good harp players so don't put the cart before the horse. Even if you are an accomplished player it doesn't mean you will be any good at even the simplest repair work." this is what i was saying. i didn't say learn on a bad instrument. i think it's a good idea to buy good gear. i've played ten? of Joe Ls MS harps. they are good harps but a lot of people slag them. i don't get that. oh well.. have a good day. ---------- MP affordable reed replacement and repairs. "making the world a better place, one harmonica at a time" click user name [MP] for info- repair videos on YouTube. you can reach me via Facebook. Mark Prados
Joe_L 2357 posts Oct 14, 2013 10:09 PM	Most people don't spend the time working at it, my man! ---------- The Blues Photo Gallery
Kingley 3210 posts Oct 14, 2013 10:27 PM	"Most people don't spend the time working at it, my man!" Very true. People are always looking for the short cuts.
chromaticblues 1485 posts Oct 15, 2013 6:27 AM	@ Kingley That is the truth if there ever was truth. I understand alot of people aren't interested in working on harps and that's cool! If you have been playing for three years and your embossing your harps. 99% of the time that is a waste of time from someone with that level of experience!
HarpNinja 3527 posts Oct 15, 2013 7:43 AM	I can't play what I want to play on a stock harp. I can play what the stock harp allows me to play, but it is limiting compared to a customized harmonica. I learned to overblow at the same time I learned to bend. My progress on both accelerated when I tried using tweaked harmonicas vs OOTB. I turned out just fine. ---------- Mantra Customized Harmonicas My Website

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