electricwitness
89 posts
Sep 09, 2013
9:52 PM
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I just lost one of my regular "house" gigs this last weekend because they where contacted by ASCAP about cover's being played in their establishment. They where given the ultimatum to pay dues or be sued, or only allow original non-ascap covered music to be played.
Has anyone had any similar experiences?
This has also got me wondering about how many places are ASCAP licensed. Is this something that myself as a musician should be asking the venues?
This is a whole new situation for me.
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jpmcbride
9 posts
Sep 09, 2013
10:12 PM
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I've lost a gig this way too. Its hard for some of the smaller venues, where music is not the focus, to pay these fees.
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Jim McBride
www.bottleoblues.com
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Jehosaphat
541 posts
Sep 09, 2013
10:47 PM
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Just out of curiousity here..but what kind of money are we talking about here?
What happens if a band plays (say) 50% covers and the rest originals?
All seems like a bit of a nightmare to me.
As an aside, seems to me that with most of the tunes Blues Bands play any money would b only going to the songwriters estate anyway?
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6SN7
364 posts
Sep 10, 2013
5:49 AM
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Yes, many years ago at a small bar near me. The owner said the ASCAP person showed up out of the blue and demanded the $, like 500$ a year. They shut down the live music in the bar as a result.
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MN
273 posts
Sep 10, 2013
6:16 AM
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This brings to mind a question I've been meaning to ask: Anyone have a list of blues standards that are public domain (i.e. no longer covered by any copyright protection)? PD songs might not be the answer to the ASCAP/live performance dilemma. But if your band wants to put together a demo CD of sorts that you might end up selling it at gigs later, seems like just recording four or five PD songs might simplify things greatly.
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walterharp
1162 posts
Sep 10, 2013
6:17 AM
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we have one bar that has had that, and they insist on mostly original material, so at least they can argue if they come back. we just dropped $360 on rights for our CD which has 5 cover tunes, wonder how many bands really follow through with that as well and if they would ever be gone after? For live music, I can sort of see wanting the fees. I can definitely see it for DJs that simply have a ton of music on their computers and play it. My guess is that the old blues players do not see a cent from this as there is no accounting for the actual songs played, so they just use some rough formula based on radio and internet play or some such thing.
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electricwitness
90 posts
Sep 10, 2013
6:36 AM
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actually they are being hit by BMI and SESCA as well... all told he said it would be $2500 dollars in dues, and they threatened over$200,000 if they sued.
Also if they play music from Pandora etc., they must pay for a commercial account or be sued, cd's are also a no no.
They also told him that if I wanted to play, ONLY ORIGINALS, I would have to submit my setlist so that they could determine if they managed any of the songs!
their tactics do seem a little mob like... it's really disheartening to loose a good gig and to see this business take a hit like this.
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Last Edited by electricwitness on Sep 10, 2013 6:41 AM
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HawkeyeKane
1984 posts
Sep 10, 2013
6:49 AM
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I haven't had any run-ins with the "protection" rackets as of yet. I remember once about eight years ago, I was working tables at a very music-oriented establishment. A rep from ASCAP, or another of the ilk, came in and showed papers to one of the owners claiming he had to pay dues for live covers to be played in his joint. He just looked at her and tried not to laugh. (I think if the rep had been a guy he might have taken a more aggressive stance.)
But nothing really ever came of it. Unfortunately, the bar closed its door a few months later due to the less sensible of the two owners getting into trouble with the liquor code and the cops.
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Hawkeye Kane
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Stevelegh
830 posts
Sep 10, 2013
7:54 AM
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The mental thing about this is that most artists actually consider people covering their songs as flattery which encourages the audience to go and find their original versions of the tune. Covers bands are good for business!!!
Again, this is another example of copyright / patent abuse. These things are not in place to screw everyone, they're designed to ensure the original artist enjoys some recompense for their efforts and continues their productivity.
Last Edited by Stevelegh on Sep 10, 2013 7:55 AM
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Honkin On Bobo
1141 posts
Sep 10, 2013
8:37 AM
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Yep, I've seen this in my neck of the woods too. As has been discussed many times on this forum, the live music scene has gotten tougher and tougher over the years and the ASCAP vultures certainly don't make it any easier.
In the example I'm thinking of the ASCAP turds came by and the bar/club owner I think told 'em to eff off. Of course it was a tiny club and he had a family member who was an attorney. So I'm thinking the ASCAP cretins figured the legal fight wouldn't be worth the hassle for the limited dollars at stake. Of course the club eventually closed, so maybe some other creditors came a callin', I don't know.
But Stevelegh above makes a good point. It IS copyright/patent abuse, as is the random kid on youtube who has to pull his instructional piece down because the copyright nazi's bug YT.
It's totally out of control and doesn't benefit who it's supposed to, but sadly, since only musos get really upset about it, nothings gonna change.
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Rick Davis
2337 posts
Sep 10, 2013
9:27 AM
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A club in Denver got nailed a couple years ago.
My home base club in Denver -- Ziggies -- is ASCAP and BMI licensed.
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The Blues Harp Amps Blog
The Mile High Blues Society
Tip Jar
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Rick Davis
2338 posts
Sep 10, 2013
9:51 AM
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tmf714, that link is extremely offensive.
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The Blues Harp Amps Blog
The Mile High Blues Society
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Bigtone
339 posts
Sep 10, 2013
11:19 AM
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Lol so who gets the money when u play a snooky prior tune or a Willie love song. These guys are straight scam. They put the money in there pocket. If no one played these covers blues would have been dead long time ago. Bmi etc don't realize money is not worth history and keeping music alive. Screw these people.
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tmf714
1973 posts
Sep 10, 2013
12:00 PM
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On what level Rick-
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REM
231 posts
Sep 10, 2013
1:09 PM
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Tmf714, are you kidding? How do you not see that it's offensive?
When the very first sentence on that page included the phrase "kak-jew Pay Clique thievery", it should have been a big clue that it wasn't something appropriate to share here. The whole page is filled with crazy anti-Semitic ramblings.
Last Edited by REM on Sep 10, 2013 1:17 PM
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tmf714
1974 posts
Sep 10, 2013
1:24 PM
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@REM-DId you stop to notice the man writing it is of Jewish heritage?
I did not share the direct page,only the link.
If you find it offensive,then click off the page. You would be offended in the first sentence,so why read on?
By the way-some of my close friends are of Jewish heritage-so I would never personally offend them in any way. It's just one mans view-and most of it is true. If you think that Jews don't rule Hollywood and the record industry,you are sadly mistaken. Just ask Adam Sandler-
Last Edited by tmf714 on Sep 10, 2013 1:25 PM
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REM
232 posts
Sep 10, 2013
1:54 PM
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His heritage is irrelevant, it doesn't make his racist hate filled ranting any less offensive. And where exactly was I suppose to discern that this man is of Jewish heritage, because looking around his site I haven't found any evidence of that. In fact I found just the opposite, he complains that he's discriminated against because he's not a Jew. So I'm not sure where you got the idea that he's of Jewish heritage, but like I said even if that were true it's irrelevant. The man has pages of crazy, angry, hate filled ramblings about Jews (most of it is, unsurprisingly, pretty incoherrent), and how they're all conspiring to take over the world. The fact that you think that most of the man's views are true is a bit disturbing, but you can believe whatever crazy nonsense you want.
"I did not share the direct page,only the link."
What's your point? It's somehow okay to link to stuff that you wouldn't be allowed to post here directly (because it violates the forum's creed)? What a strange distinction.
Last Edited by REM on Sep 10, 2013 2:10 PM
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nacoran
7119 posts
Sep 10, 2013
1:57 PM
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Tmf714, I could argue that ASCAP is more capitalist than socialist, but I don't want to turn it into pedantics points about politics. While I agree the system is broken, lets please keep comments/links to either how to work within the broken system or how to fix the broken system without resorting to insurgency.
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Nate
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Rick Davis
2339 posts
Sep 10, 2013
2:00 PM
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"More than 85% of all fees collected by the two largest performing rights organizations are paid to composers and publishers as royalties for the performance of their copyrighted works."
http://www.retailradio.biz/docs/WhyLicencedMusic.pdf
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The Blues Harp Amps Blog
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REM
233 posts
Sep 10, 2013
2:03 PM
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Tmf714: "By the way-some of my close friends are of Jewish heritage-so I would never personally offend them in any way."
Send them a link to that page, I'm pretty sure they'll be offended. Then tell them "It's just one mans view-and most of it is true", I'm pretty sure they'll be even more offended.
Last Edited by REM on Sep 10, 2013 2:05 PM
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REM
234 posts
Sep 10, 2013
2:34 PM
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Tmf714,
You're going to need to give me more of a hint than that for me to have any idea what you're talking about. What line are you talking about, I don't see any on this thread that that say "needless to say" so I can only assume you're referring to the linked page. Which if that's the case, I'm not going to waste my time going through all that nonsense looking for a line that says "needless to say", just to have some idea of what your talking about (did you see how long that page is). As you said, after reading the first sentence I had no intention of going through and reading that whole page. It was clear that it was filled with angry, hateful, racial slurs and semi- incoherrent ramblings, and was written by a man who appears to be mentally unbalanced.
To be honest I'm not sure why we're continuing to talk about that clearly racist page, but I guess you feel some need to try to justify it. It's just distracting from what was a really interesting thread, so hopefully we can get back on topic.
Last Edited by REM on Sep 10, 2013 2:57 PM
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nacoran
7120 posts
Sep 10, 2013
2:53 PM
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tmf714, there isn't some magical wand you get to wave that says, 'hey, I've got a friend who belongs to a minority so I can make fun of that minority', or even a wand that lets a minority decide for every member of that minority what is offensive. You are a clever guy. Surely, with the help of Google you could have found an article supporting your point of view that didn't include a racists rant couldn't you? It also borders on religion, so you are on very thin ice as far as the forum creed goes. "AT REM-put on your reading glasses -and start with the line"needless to say" also wanders close to the line on respecting other members.
I'm saying this all as a site admin, so take it seriously.
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Nate
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tmf714
1979 posts
Sep 10, 2013
3:09 PM
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Yep Nate-that's why I deleted the link and replaced it with the above-REM simply missed reading the authors heritage statement-
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shbamac
362 posts
Sep 10, 2013
3:29 PM
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A former friend of mine got a job with ASCAP back in the 80's. Key word - former. He became the former friend of a lot of people...
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kudzurunner
4247 posts
Sep 10, 2013
3:35 PM
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Performing rights organizations are my friend. I just checked my BMI statements. In 2011, after Kick and Stomp came out, I made roughly $850 from BMI. In the first three quarters of 2012 I made about half that. A couple of months ago I got a check from SoundsExchange for $2200 in royalties--a staggering, unprecedented, epic payout in the life of this ill-recompensed journeyman.
ALL of that, more or less, was thanks to plays on Sirius XM. The BMI payouts were for the songs that I wrote--Buford Chapel Breakdown and Down Ain't Out (a pair of instrumentals). The SoundExchange payout was to me as a so-called "featured artist" payment; it included large payments for covers (such as Sunshine of Your Love) as well as originals. It was an "adjustment" and seems to reflect ALL of the plays garnered by my last three albums (two solo + the Satan & Adam) over the past several years. A one-time windfall, in other words. But still. Whew. I realize that Sting is making this much every three days from "Every Step You Take," but I ain't Sting. For many years, I got royalty statements from BMI that were so small--two or three dollars, typically--that they deferred payment. Quarter after quarter, year after year. Siriux XM is the game changer in a huge way. Get a couple of Picks to Click and you've paid for an album. I'm not joking. KICK AND STOMP cost $1600 to make.
Virtually none of the royalties I've sketched above seem to have come from venues that feature live music. I guess I need to write a song like "Johnny B. Goode"--one that bands want to play live--and that will change.
My advice to those of you who are making and releasing your own records: 1) retain ownership of your own masters; 2) write original tunes and register them with BMI, ASCAP, or SESAC; 3) by all means register everything, including the covers, with SoundExchange; 4) send Bluesville your disc and hope that one of the DJs happens to like a song or two; 5) submit your music to iTunes and Amazon mp3s using CD Baby (which is what I use) or TuneCore or the equivalent--a company that gives you accurate, timely reports.
There is more money out there for musicians who TCB than I would have realized before I got into this whole thing. Most of all, you've got a better shot than ever these days of receiving honest, timely accounting. Rounder went 19 years without paying Satan & Adam. I finally made a stink and, amazingly, they got a new guy in the royalty department who actually wanted to put the books in order and pay us what we were owed. Now things are square and I've got no complaints. But CD Baby, working with iTunes and Amazon, have been absolutely terrific. If I write a hit, I know I'll get what's due me. And if things just keep on cooking as they've been cooking--well, I'm fine with that, too.
One of the points made by the NYT article referenced in the long contentious piece linked by tmf (I enjoyed both pieces) is that there's so much free music bouncing around these days that people--including venues--are shocked when people from ASCAP and BMI show up and ask them to actually pay for something. I can't speak from experience about whether it's a protection racket. What it is, clearly, is an unusually time-intensive, individuated, one-on-one act of collection and persuasion. It's the opposite of virtual. It's about actually showing up on location at a series of unique venues and asking them to obey the law. If, as the NYT piece claims, BMI has never lost a case, surely that says SOMETHING about the way they operate. Cynics may say, "Sure, they wrote the law and own the legislators," but on the flip side, that record suggests that they're not engaging in trivial harassment. It truly sounds as though the law is on their side.
Last Edited by kudzurunner on Sep 10, 2013 4:12 PM
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Rick Davis
2341 posts
Sep 10, 2013
4:00 PM
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ASCAP named my son one of the best young jazz composers in America, for three years in a row. And they protect his work. I have no problems with them.
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The Blues Harp Amps Blog
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electricwitness
91 posts
Sep 10, 2013
4:38 PM
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Thank you for the feedback everyone.
kudzrunner thank you especially. I knew what these organizations are supposed to do but had no idea about how they actually work. A very enlightening post.
There may be more good than bad that comes from this experience for me.
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robbert
242 posts
Sep 10, 2013
4:45 PM
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It's good to hear positive feedback from an artist's point of view. Thanks, Adam and also Rick.
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KingoBad
1385 posts
Sep 10, 2013
5:32 PM
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So if I was going to register with one of these horrible companies, which one would be the first choice?
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Danny
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LSC
500 posts
Sep 10, 2013
6:35 PM
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I wonder if these ASCAP and BMI reps work on commission? Sounds like it from the hard sell tactics.
I know of a couple of bars/restaurants that were seriously considering giving up on live music due to the mob tactics. One in particular the owner used to be a band manager and was involved in the local music scene for many years. In the end he just told both reps to bring it on. Neither was heard from again.
I belong to PRS/MCPS, the UK rights organizations which deals with both performance and mechanical royalties. They, like most all the various agencies in different countries, collect royalties worldwide. One of the things I particularly liked was the one time 25 pound enrollment fee. You had to qualify with a certain number of plays, which included live venues, pay the fee one time and that was it. You're good for life. I"m currently a voting member.
I don't know what their system is for licensing venues like bars and such but I do know that virtually every one you walk into has a PRS sticker on the window, which cowers both live and recorded music. BTW, larger capacity venues pay a performance royalty based on that capacity for every song each artist performs at that venue.
If you're willing to fill out a form with details of the venues and songs you played you can qualify for a lump sum payment which is shared from the blanket licensing fees and distributed to writers and composers who have not received a minimum payment in their own right.
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LSC
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LSC
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JInx
531 posts
Sep 10, 2013
7:26 PM
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"The owner said the ASCAP person showed up out of the blue and demanded the $, like 500$ a year. They shut down the live music in the bar as a result."
$500 is nothing. The club runs that tight? something doesn't make sense.
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Last Edited by JInx on Sep 10, 2013 7:27 PM
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easyreeder
395 posts
Sep 10, 2013
9:50 PM
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It is possible to believe that artists should be paid for their work while also believing that BMI/ASCAP tactics are despicable. If the tactics don't bother you because you're getting paid, you're letting your wallet govern your ethics. Legal doesn't equal ethical. I don't see how artists can hope to be compensated without a licensing system, but a venue should be free to hire artists who perform their own original work without having to hire "protection" from other artists.
Does BMI/ASCAP pay refunds to venues on the licensing fees if a venue demonstrates that no covers were performed during the licensing period? It seems they do demand proof in advance and they're willing to threaten lawsuits to get venues to pay. It's not just the fear of losing a lawsuit that's scary, it's the knowledge that you'll be paying an attorney to fight it. Whether the threat is to break a leg or break the bank with a lawsuit, it's still extortion and intimidation. If you think the dollars are small, then you don't understand what it means to be a truly small business (particularly in a seasonal market).
Imagine a restaurant being required to pay an annual license because they MIGHT use one of Bobby Flay's recipes during the year. Imagine being required to prove that you won't steal a car in the next 12 months to avoid a jail sentence. Imagine owning a solar car but being required to pay the power company an annual stipend because you MIGHT plug it into a wall outlet.
If the local eatery in Tinytown hires an artist to perform original works they shouldn't have to do a damn thing to protect themselves from BMI/ASCAP. This is having a real impact at the grass roots level, and it's stifling live music.
Garth Brooks took this idea to a new level some years ago when he demanded that record stores pay royalties when selling used recordings. His argument was that he couldn't stand the idea that all the people who worked on those recordings behind the scenes weren't getting paid again. Bullshit. Using that logic, used car dealers should be required to pay the manufacturer every time they sell a second-hand car, so the people who designed and built it can get paid again. Apply the BMI/ASCAP mentality to it and they'd be required to send those payments in advance.
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kudzurunner
4248 posts
Sep 11, 2013
5:10 AM
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@easyreeder: I'm not letting my wallet govern my ethics. I'm speaking from my personal experience. I can't testify to what I haven't experienced or witnessed. I've witnessed how BMI and SoundExchange work from the musician's side. Both organizations have given me timely, (apparently) accurate accountings. The SoundExchange folks have been exceptionally helpful. They said "We've got money for you. Please call us!" When I had trouble updating my registration, I easily got a human being on the phone and she patiently, competently walked me through the steps.
I can't speak about BMI, ASCAP, etc. from the bar owner's side. I do think that when you're talking about blues, many bands play a range of other people's music, and some of it is sketchily copyrighted or not copyrighted at all. When a performing rights rep walks into that sort of space, he or she may be trying to rationalize (and profit from) something that can't easily and fairly be rationalized. I haven't had any direct experience (or secondary conversations with bar owners) suggesting that BMI/ASCAP reps and their organization deserve to be demonized. I was careful in my OP to be clear about the grounds on which I was speaking.
I agree completely with the following statement: "If the local eatery in Tinytown hires an artist to perform original works they shouldn't have to do a damn thing to protect themselves from BMI/ASCAP." But I suspect that 90% of artists in the popular/folk music realm spend at least some of each set performing other people's music. I've played lots of folk festivals. Singer/songwriters quite often intersperse their own songs with songs they love by other singer/songwriters.
I certainly think that the issues on display in this thread deserve to be raised and discussed. I do think, though, that to blame the demise of live music on BMI/ASCAP reps is way off base. Live music did just fine in the 1960s and the reps were alive and well and pounding the pavement back then. The demise of live music has much more to do with the proliferation of YouTube, cable TV, DVDs played on home entertainment consoles, iPhones, etc. We're amusing ourselves to death (to invoke the title of Neal Postman's prescient pre-internet book) with the help of new media in the privacy of our own homes, and live music is paying the price.
Last Edited by kudzurunner on Sep 11, 2013 5:17 AM
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Honkin On Bobo
1142 posts
Sep 11, 2013
7:35 AM
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I can and will speak about BMI,ASCAP from the bar owners side. The place I was talking about above is tiny. About 12-15 bar stools and table/couch seating for maybe a 15 to 20 more. Tiny (downright claustrophobic) stage. Despite having a number of things going against it (not the least of which was the general apathy for live local music), the owner managed to put live local bands in that place 3 to 4 nights a week for several years. Some great, some awful..and everything in between. The bands might not have been paid a lot but almost all WERE PAID SOMETHING.
He was a magician in figuring ways to keep the lights on and the fun going. Stretching his payables here or there till the next "really good night", coming up with wild promotions to get people in the door. Cutting corners here and there. I know all this because I became a really good friend of his over the years and played in couple of his bands (yep he fronted several bands, and it was probably his love for the music that motivated his crazy ass to keep the place open). So I laugh at the poster who posted "The club runs that tight?" As a matter of fact, yeah, some of 'em do. A "request" from the ASCAP nazi's for their $500 or $700 or $1,500 payment at a time when your last $500 restocks the cooler and keeps the electricity on so the amps can be plugged in, might well be the psychological tipping point for an bar owner to just throw in the towel.
Now, the cynically cold might say he was a fool or a bad businessman to even have tried to keep the place open. There might be a grain of truth to that. But I prefer to think of him as the guy who was a friend to every musician, who thought nothing of diving into his own pocket to pay the musicians a few hundred bucks on a night when NOBODY came out to listen to them.
So excuse me if I shed no tears that whoever owns the rights to Cream's catalogue missed thier royalty payment on a rainy Sunday night when 8 people showed up to listen to a great garage band's blistering take on Sunshine of Your Love.
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nacoran
7122 posts
Sep 11, 2013
8:11 AM
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Are the ASCAP fees tied to venue size? If they aren't, that would seem to be a problem. I know we had a cabaret tax here in SmAlbany that wasn't calibrated well to take the size of the venue into account (besides being a bad tax for some other reasons relating to tax structure, from discouraging business to requiring setlists, probably to comply with ASCAP).
Personally, I like the library model for intellectual property rights, where artists/creators get paid out of a fund taken from a more general tax and everyone can use everything, but that model doesn't have political support, so ASCAP is the only system to get artists their due. Enforcing at the venue level is the way they do it economically. The other option would be for them to enforce it with the musicians. That would require a system to licence music really easily for bands to perform, but would be a nightmare to enforce.
It's easy to look at it from the venues point of view, and the musicians, but remember, some people write music and live off the royalties. There also seem to be two separate issues here- replay: a radio or computer streaming music, and covers. The model used to be that radio stations would play a song (sometimes they'd even get paid to play a song) and then people would buy a record. If people actually still bought records like they used to, you could make a stronger argument that cover bands and radio play are just promotion, but promotion for what? Concerts? Well, yeah, but that skews things towards bands that tour rather than bands that do studio albums (and touring is fine if you are in good health and have understanding family, but it's not for everyone.)
You need a model that pays people for creating something. More and more I'm convinced that that model involves a library system, where everything is 'free' to use, and the artists are paid out of a tax fund. Why? Because the other option is organizations like ASCAP and the RIAA going after private citizens and the criminalization of lots of people who download music and movies off the web, which is a nightmare to enforce.
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Rick Davis
2343 posts
Sep 11, 2013
11:38 AM
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As I noted above, Ziggies in Denver is a member and licensee of ASCAP and BMI. I don't know how much they pay; I'll ask next time I see Carla, the owner.
The capacity is about 110 people. They do not serve food, except BBQ on Sundays which is catered, and on which they try to break even. In other words, Ziggies makes all it's money on the small margin it gets on drinks sold across the bar.
They have live music seven nights a week. Everybody gets paid. To be sure, the Mon - Weds jam hosts or musicians don't get paid much but they get paid. Bands on the weekend get a small guarantee and 100% of the door.
Drinks are not expensive at Ziggies. I've been to other jams where they jacked up the price of drinks to ridiculous levels, like 8 bucks for a beer or 12 bucks for a mixed drink. In Ziggies you can get a glass of PBR for a dollar. I drink an import NA beer and it goes for $4.00.
A blues club CAN be fair with performance rights issues (ASCAP and BMI) and still make the business profitable. Carla has owned Ziggies for six years. She hires bartenders and focuses mostly on local acts. She is a BIG asset to the blues scene in Denver.
Just my two bits here... but performance rights fees don't have to bust a blues club. And here is a photo of Erika, bartender at Ziggies, showing off her Hello Kitty bling.
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The Blues Harp Amps Blog
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Last Edited by Rick Davis on Sep 11, 2013 11:59 AM
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isaacullah
2493 posts
Sep 11, 2013
1:14 PM
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Having never dealt with them, I have nothing to add about BMI, ASCAP, etc. However, I do have some info about Public Domain (having written several pieces of software that are in the public domain). Basically, things are in the public domain if the owners/authors have allowed it, or if the copyright has expired. Copyright lengths are different for different things and in different countries, but a good source to see if a song you want to cover is in the PD is; http://www.pdinfo.com/
Also, any recorded media that is technically in the PD now, only applies to media that were originally released in the time frame of the expired copyright. That is to say, you can freely play, copy, cover, sample, resample a song straight from an ORIGINAL blues recording from the 1920's, but you CANNOT do the same with a "remastered" version of the same song off a CD you bought on Amazon. Technically, the "remastering" is enough to put that version (the remastered version) back into copyright. A good source of freely disseminated copies of truely PD music that expressly remains in the PD can be found here: https://archive.org/details/audio
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chopsy
20 posts
Sep 13, 2013
7:01 AM
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we have a local coffeehouse that does an amazing job supporting local music. they have one of the most diverse open mic nights I've seen. They also don't have a lot of money to throw around like many of the other small joints mentioned in this topic so when the man came a-knockin' they put together a night where everyone played for free (strictly covers only, since that what we are paying for!) and the proceeds go to pay the fee. They call it "Kiss My ASCAP" and do it every year or two to make sure those fees don't end up closing them down. I happily contribute! Something to consider for others in the same situation.
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walterharp
1596 posts
Feb 07, 2015
10:04 AM
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they were around here a couple of years ago and now they are back, contacting all bars and restaurants that ever feature live music
now they have been back recently causing at least 2 and maybe 3 of the few places around here to stop booking live acts, and in a small college town that means there are almost no venues available any more
most of these places are operating on a razor thin profit margin or at a minimum cannot bring in enough more money off of paying bands and fees, and working against the fact that students will not even pay a $3.00 cover, they will just go elsewhere because 1) they do not value live music, and 2) they never pay for any music.
the squeeze is on small local acts and venues for sure. ASCAP does not help at all in this aspect because their fees to not reflect the economic realities of what it takes a small club to operate in today's music climate.. 30 years ago live music was a more valuable commodity and people would pay to get in
so as a business model they should simply charge bars less or they will get nothing at all.
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Frank101
71 posts
Feb 07, 2015
10:37 AM
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Anyone who cares can find out what the BMI fees are by googling "BMI fees". The BMI website has the licensing forms for download. You can work out what various types of places might get charged.
A small club (max 100 people), with never a cover charge, no dancing, bands 2-4 nights a week, would pay BMI $485 a year (less 10% if the club owner pays for the full year instead of monthly). Presumably ASCAP rates are similar. Say a thousand bucks for the two of them, that still works out to like three bucks a night.
As for SESAC, at this point in time they are basically Bob Dylan's personal performing rights org. If I owned a bar I'd just tell bands not to do any Dylan songs.
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walterharp
1597 posts
Feb 07, 2015
11:16 AM
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yeah, that looks about right $500 to stream music, and $1500 per year for performances (so why is it less for recorded music than live performed music for the same artist?). This seems to be the same if you have one performance a year or 365 for a place that holds 100 people.
around here it is a college town, so there are generally about 20 good weekends a year for indoor things and fewer for the places that only have only outdoor things.
so an average place here might have 10 shows a year to spice up the bar...and that extra $150 per performance seems to be enough to push them over the top.
you can argue if it is too much or fair or not, but i know the business owners personally, and it is a significant factor in their decision whether or not to have live performances.
and the local live musicians end up paying the price
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clyde
396 posts
Feb 07, 2015
1:48 PM
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I have made money from Music all of my life. The last 10 years of my business I paid well over $100,000 to the publishing companies. If I'm going to make money off somebody's music I feel I need to pay for it.
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walterharp
1598 posts
Feb 07, 2015
3:05 PM
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i agree, but if a dj comes in and plays pre-recorded music then it costs the bar 1/3 as much (just in ascap or bmi fees, not to mention paying one person instead of a whole band) as having a live band cover one of the songs? the deck is stacked against local live musicians.
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bluzmn
92 posts
Feb 08, 2015
2:50 AM
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I am a member of ASCAP, but I've never gotten a penny from them (yes, I know it's because nobody plays my songs but me). Still, it makes me angry when I call up a club trying to get a gig and they tell me they're no longer having live music because of ASCAP, BMI and SESAC fees. ASCAP is supposed to be of benefit to me; instead it's taking food out of my mouth. And these organizations' tactics are thuggish; one of them even went after the Girl Scouts over the songs they sing around the campfire!
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jawbone
565 posts
Feb 08, 2015
11:14 AM
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My sister has a furniture and gift store in downtown Toronto, she plays kind of "new age whale song" kind of stuff in the background - a few years ago one of these outfits came in and told her she had to pay "something" - I'm not sure how it turned out, but knowing my sister, she told them to "suck lemons" and threatened to break an end table over their heads if they came back.
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If it ain't got harp - it ain't really blues!!!!
Last Edited by jawbone on Feb 08, 2015 11:15 AM
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waltertore
2804 posts
Feb 08, 2015
11:25 AM
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Most of the joints I played when I was a full time musician were so shady that I never heard of such a thing. Back rooms of BBQ's, Juke Joints before white people started coming in regularly, mob run clubs, ......... Walter
I played mostly places like this - The Deluxe Inn, Oakland CA circa 1980 with Johnny B Good's Band
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walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year in the Tunnel of Dreams Studio.
" life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
my videos
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zackattack
24 posts
Feb 08, 2015
8:18 PM
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If you are a musician it is well worth your while to become familiar with copyright issues. I perform as a musician but also video open mic performances as a hobby, posting them to my YouTube channel. For those not aware of it, there is a separate license required to replay performances of copyrighted music. You can lose your YouTube channel if you are caught. YouTube is said to have made a deal with licensing agencies for an unspecified number of songs, but there is no list of what can be posted legally, as far as I can tell. They utilize software programs that can detect similarities in lyrics and/or note/rhythm similarity and will flag the ones identified. I had a song flagged on my channel for a supposed 18 second section that was identified as from another song in their library. Thing is, it wasn't a cover at all, was in another language (Spanish) and was a horrible open mic off the cuff, made up song! I appealed and they still maintained that I had violated someone's copyright. At this time, with over 250 videos on my channel, they are pretty much all originals - I pulled down more than 50 songs performed at open mic that were covers.
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