Rhartt1234
80 posts
Feb 20, 2013
5:50 AM
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I've read all there is to read on this subject and I still can't decide what speaker to get.
I know the following is impossible list of criteria but here's what I'm looking for.
1. Early breakup for nice distortion at low volume, but still as loud as the stock speaker when cranked.
2. More mids and lows than the stock speaker, overall a much more even response.
3. Still usable for guitar.
Speakers I'm considering:
Eminence Blue Frame alnico
Eminence lil Buddy
though I believe it is not as efficient/ loud as the stock speaker
Weber 10a125-o with the H dust cap
I've read some criticism that the dust cap kills too many highs but that might just be what the Pro Jr. needs.
Jensen p10R
some dudes think it is too bright. NOT what the Pro Jr. needs.
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Rick Davis
1331 posts
Feb 20, 2013
6:19 AM
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Ryan, I tried a Weber Sig ceramic 10 in a Fender Pro Jr and liked it a lot. That was a few years ago, and if I were to undertake the same project today I would try the Eminence Lil Buddy and Ram Rod speakers. The Lil Buddy really is a remarkable harp speaker if you like a big warm tone. It's very efficient at 99.1 db @ 1 watt/1 meter, so it makes the amp louder and barkier.
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-Rick Davis
The Blues Harp Amps Blog
The Mile High Blues Society
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Rhartt1234
81 posts
Feb 20, 2013
6:43 AM
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Rick,
I had a feeling you would chime in.
I tried the Weber sig 10 and I think it broke up too early and I lost a lot of volume.
I've still got it, so I'll probably give it a try at some point in this project.
Thanks
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HawkeyeKane
1483 posts
Feb 20, 2013
6:58 AM
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+1 for the Lil Buddy. Tried one with my 'Zoo a few weeks ago. I'm sticking with the original speaker for now, but should it ever go bad, I know which speaker I'll replace it with.
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Hawkeye Kane
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Rick Davis
1332 posts
Feb 20, 2013
7:13 AM
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Yep, threads like this are like a dog whistle for me.
When I did the Pro Jr project I was trying to work on a budget -- a used amp and cheap mods to keep the total price under $300 and still come up with decent harp tone. The sig ceramic was the best of the low-cost speakers I tried. (I did not try a Warehouse Veteran, which I'm really impressed with recently. A Celestion Tube 10 would be another low-cost option.)
I also liked the 12DW7 unbalanced phase inverter, and I haven't liked that in many amps.
According to the criteria you listed, I would suggest the Lil Buddy. It is not super crunchy but nice color. I am familiar with your sound and I think it might be what you are looking for.
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-Rick Davis
The Blues Harp Amps Blog
The Mile High Blues Society
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HawkeyeKane
1485 posts
Feb 20, 2013
7:44 AM
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There's a rebuilt 10" Pyle Driver on eBay going for cheap right now. I somewhat doubt it'd have the same good characteristics as the old Sonny Jr. Pyle Driver 8's, but it might be an interesting pairing.
Pyle Driver 10" Pro Audio Speaker - 8 ohm - W10C200-F
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Hawkeye Kane
Last Edited by HawkeyeKane on Feb 20, 2013 7:45 AM
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barbequebob
2198 posts
Feb 20, 2013
7:47 AM
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@Rhartt1234 --- I still have the one I bought back in 1995, which was one of the last ones that used the blue Eminence alnico magnet speakers that were on the original Bassman RI's and I can tell you that these sound more like a Jensen P10R's than the new reissued versions do (getting an NOS one can be risky because if work was done on it, and they didn't use the correct paper, voice coils, wiring, glue and gluing techniques, they'e usually gonna sound awful).
What they've been using since 1995 is one with a ceramic magnet that, tho still sounds pretty good, isn't anywhere near as good as the Eminence alnicos (Legend 102's).
I got rid of the Chinese made tubes in them and put all NOS GE's in them and the amp sounds like a mini-Bassman.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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Rick Davis
1333 posts
Feb 20, 2013
8:15 AM
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I agree with Bob. The Blue alnico speakers in the early Pro Jrs were very good.
I used EH EL84 power tubes, which I though were warmer sounding (I am not a fan of EL84 amps generally) and a Philips 5751 in the preamp socket. The phase inverter -- as I mentioned above -- was a JJ 12DW7 (ECC832). The amp sounded pretty dang good, much better than stock.
edited to add: I also disconnected the negative feedback circuit. That is important.
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-Rick Davis
The Blues Harp Amps Blog
The Mile High Blues Society
Last Edited by Rick Davis on Feb 20, 2013 1:49 PM
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Kingley
2330 posts
Feb 20, 2013
8:55 AM
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I had a green Jensen Alnico speaker in mine. Don't know the model number, but it sounded great.
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Rhartt1234
82 posts
Feb 20, 2013
4:40 PM
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Thanks cats.
I'll let you know how it goes.
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Rhartt1234
84 posts
Mar 28, 2013
8:58 AM
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I put the Eminence lil Buddy in today. I am pleased. Just as loud as the stock speaker with much better low end and a smooth break up.
Thanks for all of the ideas and recommendations.
It's almost there. Now onto swapping out the tubes.
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HawkeyeKane
1572 posts
Mar 28, 2013
9:10 AM
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" I also disconnected the negative feedback circuit. That is important."
Rick, I'm still somewhat unfamiliar with the Pro Jr. circuit. Can you describe and elaborate on this a bit? Does the Blues Jr. have this same component in its circuit as well?
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Hawkeye Kane
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SmokeJS
71 posts
Mar 28, 2013
9:23 AM
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Question for HawykeyKane. Assuming the Lil Buddy is more efficient as it appears to be more so than the stock Kalamazoo CTS, when you tried the Lil Buddy with the Kalamazoo did the increase in speaker efficiency change the character of the amp making it cleaner at similar volume levels! Thanks!
Last Edited by SmokeJS on Mar 28, 2013 9:27 AM
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HawkeyeKane
1574 posts
Mar 28, 2013
9:36 AM
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@SmokeJS
I don't know that I'd neccessarily call the Lil Buddy more efficient than the CTS. I mean yes, the Lil Buddy is a modern ceramic and therefore has a far higher RMS wattage rating, so if that's what you mean by more efficient...I guess I really can't comment since the Kalamazoo is a 5-8W amp. The output voltage remains the same between the Lil Buddy and the CTS.
The differences I CAN comment on touch more in the realm of tonal characteristics. To answer your question simply...yes. To my ears, the breakup volume is at least two notches higher than what it would take with the CTS. And the overall tone that it produced seemed a lot more full and rich than the CTS as a result. But again, these are things one might expect when comparing between a vintage alnico and a modern ceramic.
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Hawkeye Kane
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SmokeJS
72 posts
Mar 28, 2013
10:19 AM
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Hawkeye, appreciate your response. It sounds like the Lil Buddy will make for an overall cleaner sound when the volume level is the same. So my guess is that finding similar levels of breakup will require a higher volume level with the Lil Buddy. Could be great if playing with others but perhaps not so much for home practice with jam tracks especially if we ignore possible tonal improvements.
Like you I'll stick with the CTS until forced into a change. But when that time comes I'll look for something closer to the CTS.
Last Edited by SmokeJS on Mar 28, 2013 10:20 AM
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Rick Davis
1536 posts
Mar 28, 2013
10:58 AM
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Ryan, cool. I thought you might like that speaker.
Tim, check my blog for articles about the Pro Jr project amp. It has some detail about the negative feedback circuit, which is really simple. I think most Fender guitar amps have some form of the NF circuit. That is how they get the shimmering highs... The Fender sound.
Speaker efficiency is not an opinion, it is a measurement. It is also known as speaker sensitivity. It is measured as the loudness of the sound a speaker produces (in dB) when driven by a 1-watt test tone with a microphone 1 meter in front of the speaker. These test are generally done in an anechoic chamber.
The sensitivity of the Lil' Buddy is 99.1 dB, which is very high for a 10-inch speaker. Alnico speakers like the CTS are usually less efficient and they compress more. The sensitivity of a Jensen P10R - which has specs similar to the old CTS - is 95 dB. That is an audible difference. The Lil Buddy makes more sound (and a deeper tone) with the same wattage.
I've used the Lil Buddy in several amps, from a 6-watt VHT Special 6 and 5-watt Fender Silver Face Champ to a big honking Bassman. The speaker has a dark smoky tone. If what you want is a ratty sound like the speaker has a big tear in the cone, this is not the speaker for you. But to my ear it breaks up very nicely without ever losing its composure.
BTW.... If you want a 10-inch speaker that REALLY breaks ups, try the Warehouse Veteran. Hoo boy... I have that in my Champ right now. Rip city.
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-Rick Davis
The Blues Harp Amps Blog
The Mile High Blues Society
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