I have basically learned to play harmonica in second position. I am fairly fluent in 1st, and in the past month or so I have concentrated solely on 3rd position. I find that third position playing has helped to improve my 2 position playing greatly! Plus, I think the sound of third position, expression, etc had now got me hooked on 3rd. I love it!
My question for the experienced players is since 95% of recorded blues music is played in 2nd, and the other 5-10% is split between 1st and third, why should one learn to play 4,5,6,7, etc position anyway?? Are the other positions really "useful" to learn from a PRACTICAL point/musical point of view,etc?? I am asking this question out of ignorance. Thanks!
I think for some it's a challenge. There is a uniqueness about using a different position because while the notes may be the same notes they are found in different places in different positions.
I'm like you, I began in 2nd, tried some 1st, spent years mainly in 2nd, and got busy with 3rd about 12 years ago. I have tried a bit in 5th and plan to revisit that because there is a haunting quality to it as well from what i heard.
There are guys out there who play everything on a C diatonic harmonica. For them they MUST know several positions besides the usual 3 we are talking about.
I have always striven to have and keep a mostly full set of harps. Between the first 3 positions I have pretty much all keys covered. I don't keep an E or F# harp in my case as I just do not like the way they sound at all.
So to me, for practical purposes, more positions are not practically speaking, needed, for what I do.
I'm interested in hearing from more accomplished players on this. ---------- http://www.reverbnation.com/jawboneandjolene
If you want to become a better musician as well as better harmonica player, the more you absorb the more you learn.
Even if you don't use the positions, it helps reinforce where all the notes "live on the harmonica".
Also, listening to those that have fun with the further away positions is a real ear opener...Charlie Musselwhite does a lot with 4th and 5th position. He tends to be a little more adventuresome than most blues diatonic players. ---------- The Iceman
Obviously there is no way to substantiate this but I get your point - which is valid - that there is a LOT of recorded blues in 2nd position. If you shift focus to PERFORMING I think that learning different positions is even more important. At least for me, when I am playing harmonica for 3 hours at a venue I like to change things up - acoustic vs. amplified as well as position playing. I think it keeps things interesting for the listener and I know it keeps things interesting for my ears! For what it is worth this is one of the reasons that I learned chromatic - to add variety to my live shows...
I'm like CarlA and jbone: Straight harp, cross harp, and slant harp. I don't feel any pressing need to use any other positions. When I hear players (both great and humble) playing odd positions I sometimes think it sounds awful. There is a bit of the Gee Whiz factor in forcing exotic positions on songs where 1, 2, or 3 would work just fine.
Having said all that, I do admire some players who can do it well. But it is just not for me.
I only play 1st, second, and third position, and 95% of my playing is in second position. I've experimented with 12th position, mostly because I've been blown away by the things that Jason and Dennis have done with it. (For 123ers like me, 12th is where the 5 draw is your root, and the whole step bend on 2 draw.) It makes sense to me, that position. Blues sense. And it also gives you a major-y modal sound, lots of ninths, when you want one.
KCBlues is right: one reason to work 3rd and 1st, even if you prefer 2nd (which I do) is that when you're playing live, you need to find ways of varying your sound. 3rd in particular instantly gives you a Dorian sound--minor third, major sixth, flat seventh--that distinguishes it from cross harp. And 3rd on a diatonic harp instantly feeds into your competence on chromatic, also played in third.
Being able to add in the overblows instantly makes the other positions more user-friendly; I get why Iceman and other jazz-directed overblowers play in multiple positions.
In my view, the best hook for other positions is songs or licks that sound incredibly cool and that can only be done, or done easily, in those non-standard positions.
So here's my challenge: please use this thread to post examples of such playing. If you wanted to convince a harp player that they needed to learn a new position--or needed at least to learn a couple of songs in a new position--what song would you point them towards? Where's the really cool stuff?
Please post links to videos (with time cues to cut to the good stuff), mp3s (time cues, if needed), whatever. Please indicate the position clearly somewhere in the vicinity of the link.
I hope the OP will consider this a fulfillment of his request, not a hijack!
Last Edited by on Dec 27, 2012 7:48 AM
Here is a general question….What does it mean to be proficient at a position?
For me to say I’m proficient doing a standard 12 bar blues in 2nd position it means being able to play the arpeggios and blues scale for the I-IV-V chords. In essence this means being proficient with the root for 2nd (I chord), 1st (IV chord) and 3rd (V chord) positions.
I think the reason other positions sometimes sound forced is a lack of comfort with the chord changes.
>>>>>"since 95% of recorded blues music is played in 2nd, and the other 5-10% is split between 1st and third, why should one learn to play 4,5,6,7, etc position anyway??"
A: Because 95% of recorded blues music is played in 2nd, and the other 5-10% is split between 1st and third. ;-)
Howdy All- My first time here on the forum. Looking forward to it. As mentioned above, overblows certainly make the other positions more user friendly,however there is another are other intentional ways of playing in at least 6 different positions that aren't too difficult. For instance,certain minor keys are related to certain major keys and share the same notees. For instance, on a C harp 2nd pos (G) is related to 5th pos ( e minor). If you were to start on a G note and a play a simple 5 note pentatonic scale in 2nd position, then you can easily play in 5th position by playing the exact same notes , but starting and resolving on an e instead of a g, and it sounds really nice over an e minor chord. Another cool way to learn other positions is by picking out a simple melody and trying it starting on a different note. A tune like "Coming home Baby" works really well in not only 2nd ,but 3rd,4th and 5th positions as well. Getting back to the original question of "what's the advantage", one of the answers is that different bendable notes will be accentuated in a completely different way using a different position. Also, certain octaves or ranges on the harmonica will be more user friendly in different positions. If you want to play up in the high end of the harp but haven't really done much of it, learn some stuff in 4th position etc.Again, it's really not as hard or mysterious as it sounds ( or as I might be making it sound). Anyway, just a few ideas that I hope helps- Sandy http://www.sandyweltmanmusic.com http://www.harmonicalessonvideos.com
Glad you joined us harpmac. Thanks for the info. I have been working to get 3rd pos. up to my 1st & 2nd pos. level. I would like to be proficient with 1st thru 5th. Got a looooong way to go!
3rd position lick i mess with is from ronnie shellist, 4567 holes and has got me hooked, but it only works for me if the back track is in Cm and using a Bb harp, (still learning)
THis comes up every now and then and was on Harp-l a while back -- and I´ll say the same thing I said then about 12 pos: the reason is basically 6 D. If you handle that note well you have perhaps the most expressive note on the entire (diatonic)harp -- and that´s the major 3: the most used bent note in history. (Perhaps over-used.) An attention grabber. 12th also gives you a natural 7th note, and we all know that the 5OB is an unstable and tricky one. Every diatonic player should know 12th.
Welcome Sandy ! I've gotten a few of your 'licks' series and found them to be really good practice / learning tools. Dig your Klezmer CD too.
Re. Positions. One of my current practice routines is trying to play 'Joshua Fought the Battle of Jericho' on different key harps.. Ill post some of my experiments with it when I get a chance.
I agree with the 'learning where the notes live' sentiment. It is not hurting my still primarily second position playing at all- but I feel like I'm getting familiar with the instrument in a deeper way. ----------
I suppose there's no reason to do anything different then has been done in the past. Why do anything other then 2nd position cover songs?
That is unless you want a really original sound and make your own music. If you don't have a desire to take your music anywhere new then there's no need to try anything different.
So, in 1954 Little Walter was doing primarily Rhumbas in B on an E harp? Then in '55 he moved more into 3rd position shuffles? Statistics confuse me. But, I like pie.
The years pass and i still can't figure out as to what position relate to in the universal musical languages. Spent, time and time reading about position and i may have grasped what are the first three, barely, but above that, that's a concept that is as sound to me as a flat earth or the sun graviting around the earth. I took me back many more time than forward learning the harp. Can't really play nothing really but at least i know what i am not doing yet and not just what i am doing.
The day we forget about position and just care about the music will be the day harp players will stoped being regarded as nothing but blues players.
Anyway, don't learn more position. Quite the opposite, forget them and just learn about music.
Another attempt: it´s Filip Jers playing harmonica in 12 pos. For some reason in Mozilla it said "embedding inactivated" I havn´t effing inactivated any embedding, but it´s just evil.
Thank you very much, Kingley. The cyberworld is to a large part a question of how to maximize irritation in the world and I´m somehow always on he receiving end of it.
@Kaining "don't learn more position. Quite the opposite, forget them and just learn about music."
Learning about music includes learning about modes. As a matter of fact, "modes" are from whence our current music was born. Modes come from Greek music from the dawn of civilized man. They used each mode to create a certain effect or feeling for their listening audience.
"Position" on the harmonica is just a reference to modes. ---------- The Iceman
One can only forget them, AFTER - they have mastered them, for NOW, they are an integral part of WHO they are :)
Unless your this gentlemen... Tony DeBlois specializes in jazz but can play just about any other type of music as well. A savant, he plays 20 musical instruments and has held concerts worldwide but also has his own band, Goodnuf. He can play about 8,000 pieces from memory.
Last Edited by on Dec 28, 2012 6:41 AM
I've missed chances to play because the song was in a minor key. Steve Baker has a chart in Harp Handbook that 3rd pos is minor/dorian, 4th pos is nat. minor, and 5th pos is minor.
His song on his playalong vol 2 called 5th Dimension is 5th on C harp for key of Em. I'll try to post soon...makes it seem worth it, and his explanation is clear.
Still weighing the options: play 2nd pos but use minor scale, 3rd, 4th (rel minor, same notes, inside track on scale of 5ths), or 5th.
Or Mitch Kashmar 1st pos...Seems many players are quick to dismiss 1st, 2nd and 3rd position as elementary and limiting… and that can be a costly mistake for a harmonica players true power to shine through :)
Last Edited by on Dec 28, 2012 8:09 AM
I think the only real reason to learn anything on the harmonica is because you're interested. If you're learning something just to check it off a list or because we said you should, you would be a lot better to spend your time on something you like.
----------
They teach you there's a boundary line to music. But, man, there's no boundary line to art. Charlie Parker
I disagree with Larry, positions are not about modes, although they can really helpful in understanding modes.
Positions are simply about what the key's root notes is in relationship to the amount of times clockwise on the circle of fifths. Key of C harp, C is first, G is 2nd. Key of G harp, G is first, D is second. That is all positions are about.
Personally I spent years working on being able to play in any position, any style. I received many compliments and people telling me they loved what I was doing and many negative comments. I either got discouraged or bored and looked to other things.
Although I believe much of what I played sounded like crap, I believe I learned piles about music and that every position had special things it could do. For example, 7th position harmonic minor is really cool.
I would recommend turning a song into Nashville numbers and playing it in every octave and position possible. I recommend taking your cross harp solos and playing them in all 12 keys. It will really inform you as to what you are actually doing in cross harp.
Consider the diatonic harmonica from holes 4 thru 10 and all the given notes that live there (no notes created through bending technique).
First Position (hole 4 exhale thru hole 7 exhale) = Ionian Mode
Second Position (hole 6 exhale through hole 9 exhale) = mixolydian mode
Third Position (hole 4 inhale through hole 8 inhale) = dorian mode
Fourth Position (hole 6 inhale through hole 10 inhale) = aeolian mode
Fifth Position (hole 5 exhale through hole 8 exhale) = phrygian mode
In these examples, positions are modes.
Extending down into the first four holes/using notes through bending technique "spreads out" conceptually from modes, also aided by how traditional blues harmonica note choices are connected to the term "position".
So, if you wanna learn the sound of all the modes in their simplistic beauty and you don't have a piano handy, a harmonica will do just fine. ---------- The Iceman
Last Edited by on Dec 28, 2012 3:11 PM
i'm very comfortable in the first three positions.
i have accidently stumbled into positions past third on occasion when playing with an interesting guitarist.
his chord changes were so un blues and unique that i naturally would gravitate towards what sounded like it was working rather than thinking positions. after the songs were finished i would try to figure out what i was doing.
i really like Joe Ls LW pie chart. very informative:) exactly the kind of info i lose sleep over. Mahalo Joe! ---------- MP affordable reed replacement and repairs.
"making the world a better place, one harmonica at a time"
click user name [MP] for info- repair videos on YouTube. you can reach me via Facebook. Mark Prados
Thanks for everyones insight! I am personally finding that the different positions are helping to compliment my playing nicely. I just recently started to play third and tried it out live at a jam yesterday for the first time. It wasn't pretty but I think it got the job done.
This little instrument of ours seems to always have many "hidden" surprises. I guess it's our job to try to find/unlock them.
-Carl
BTW, it was Jason Ricci's spring fest video that was posted about three weeks ago that really inspired/motivated me to step outside the bounds of traditional 2nd position playing.
I fully agree that other positions are very approachable on the harmonica...Though I would wager that Jason not only mastered many solos from the Masters song books in 2nd pos but that he also developed his own expertise of musical language in 2nd pos - before he dove face first into what ever "other" musical surprises lay outside "The BIG 3"...We all are going to practice what ever we want to, I suppose I'm suggesting, what ever one decides to put their time and energy into, make it count - stay focused and don't be in to much of a hurry to leave the meat and potatoes of harp playing behind... cause mastery of the fundamentals is what truly separates the Jason Ricci's from the rest of the pack - not all the different positions one can play!
kudzurunner: "So here's my challenge: please use this thread to post examples of such playing. If you wanted to convince a harp player that they needed to learn a new position--or needed at least to learn a couple of songs in a new position--what song would you point them towards? Where's the really cool stuff?"
Here's an example I think is really cool. Check out "The Deb" by Dave Therault. This song blew me away and I am now attempting to learn 5th position so I can (someday) play it. I am inching along with it, a few bars at a time, using slow-down software.
In case the link doesn't work, the URL is http://www.modernbluesharmonica.com/board/board_topic/5560960/3075575.htm
Last Edited by on Dec 28, 2012 9:30 PM
This sure turned into a big deal! I have to be a realist here. I can take on the new load of learning scales and new positions and all, but a few have alluded to the fact of 123 being at least adequate. True for me, I've been at this a couple of decades as a gigging musician. I'm not making a living but it pays back some of what I've invested. It has been a good clean challenge for a lot of years. Relatively inexpensive unlike drag racing, sailboats, or golf, or any number of avocations or hobbies.
My main thing is, I'm happy doing what I'm doing. Sometimes I am challenged and I work to rise to the new challenge. But my focus is more logistical ie, I can play mostly what I want to. Now I am looking for people to fill other roles in the next project from here. I'm looking into creative ways to fund recording and production of a new cd. I'd like to pay the participants something. Wife and I are writing new material and learning our parts, looking forward to the first rough recordings. These will then be handed off to music partners across the country so they can put their parts in. Eventually we will be sitting in a studio or at a friend's computer at any rate, listening, trying different things, and producing a new work.
THAT'S exciting and challenging to me. My playing is at a level where a lot of audience have no idea what I'm doing but it sounds good. Audiences don't care, their needs are pretty basic mostly. I seem to be a bit ahead of most of my peers locally, even 3rd is a stretch for a lot of guys I know around here. Let alone 1st, to me the "forgotten position".
So for me, bottom line, I'm pretty happy doing what I do. http://www.reverbnation.com/jawboneandjolene
There´s something of a bottom line here and it comes to blues harp players committed attitude towards a sort of "anti-intellectual" stance. Sounding exactly like your heroes is what counts, therefore very little happens in the genre. (And, for safety´s sake: I value the tradition highly, but I find most blues harp players dull.) They are the only type of musicians who could think it´s "theory" to know the basics of what you´re doing on your instrument and hence can´t be bothered to find out, with the mustering of intellectual energy equivalent to being able to follow a TV show, that positions 4, 5 and 12 (and even 11) are all ready whithin your reach if you can handle 1, 2 and 3. They rather go out and buy themselves another amp.
