jim
1318 posts
Oct 13, 2012
12:31 PM
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Work in progress...
A gift from a friend with 3 missing reeds.
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ElkRiverHarmonicas
1334 posts
Oct 13, 2012
6:09 PM
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You took out the lengthwise milled reeds? Really?
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David
____________________
At the time of his birth, it was widely accepted that no one man could play that much music so well or raise that much hell. He proved them all wrong.
R.I.P. H. Cecil Payne
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shanester
537 posts
Oct 13, 2012
6:16 PM
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Isn't there a potential oxidation problem mixing the two metals?
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Shane,
"The Possum Whisperer"
Shane's Cloud
1shanester
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arzajac
867 posts
Oct 13, 2012
6:18 PM
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Hey David, have you ever seen a B-Rad (with original lengthwise-milled reeds) with a blown reed?
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ElkRiverHarmonicas
1335 posts
Oct 13, 2012
6:44 PM
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I have seen only personally seen one such reed. If you're asking how many I know about, I know of three. Two were blown out by the same guy.
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David
____________________
At the time of his birth, it was widely accepted that no one man could play that much music so well or raise that much hell. He proved them all wrong.
R.I.P. H. Cecil Payne
Last Edited by on Oct 13, 2012 6:45 PM
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GMaj7
115 posts
Oct 13, 2012
6:55 PM
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Shanester.. and oxidation between metals..
Original Seydel stainless steel reeds were mounted on brass reed plates. There are still a bunch of them floating around.. 20 or 30 on my bench and none of them seem to have adverse problems..
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Greg Jones
16:23 Custom Harmonicas
greg@1623customharmonicas.com
1623customharmonicas.com
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shanester
538 posts
Oct 13, 2012
7:32 PM
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Thanks Mr. Jones, good to know the results from the field!
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Shane,
"The Possum Whisperer"
Shane's Cloud
1shanester
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STME58
264 posts
Oct 13, 2012
9:49 PM
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The way to tell how fast dissimilar metals will corrode when in contact is to look at their position on the galvanic series. Stainless and brass are pretty close. Much closer than brass and aluminum. On brass harps with aluminum combs you can taste the voltage generated when your tounge makes contact with the two metals. This voltage is the electrons transfering in the corrosion process.
I notice this on both my Promaster and 1847 Nobel. One of my Promasters has a nick in the anodize of the comb and not only is it obvious when I hit it with my tounge, but I can see this spot is corroding quickly.
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jim
1321 posts
Oct 14, 2012
12:57 AM
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Dave,
I took out the brass reeds because brass is in the past. Polished steel is just better.
That harp had missing 2 3 4 blow.
What I really don't like about b-radical is quality.
- Reedplates are all scratched as if it was hand using a large file.
- Reed screws are awful. They are much like harponline screws that are a disaster to use. The screws are not tightened (or became loose after the nut was tightened).
- The comb smells of acryl
In general, I see so much (unnecessary) manual work inside, that I don't wonder Brad had problems with order queue.
I also think that b-radical focused on unnecessary details, leaving out huge problems unsolved.
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ElkRiverHarmonicas
1336 posts
Oct 14, 2012
1:40 AM
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The original 1847s had brass reedplates. It's not really a problem.
It is a work in progress that is getting harder as it progresses. Reeds 1-4 would have gone in fine. Seydel reed hole 5 would have been .02mm too wide, No. 6 would have been .02mm too wide. As you go up higher, the slots will continue to get narrower, but the Seydel reeds will stay the same thickness - and the slots are very, very tight.
When I posted here yesterday, this was on my mind, but I wanted to reflect on it before I said anything.
The Payne rule of harmonicas is, harmonicas are like sex. However you make it, somebody will be freakily into it, somebody will think it's the most repulsive thing ever and everybody else will fall in between. According to this rule, no harmonica can be made that won't have some guy who doesn't like it. I think the same is true for automobiles. I worked at an auto parts store when I was in college. People would come in with these Frankenstein pickups, they'd have a Dodge, for instance, with "Chevrolet running gears." So, it would be a 1979 Dodge with a 1973 Chevrolet 350 engine, a CHevy transmission of unknown vintage, a homemade driveshaft.
Back to harmonicas, this is the second one I've seen where its value was destroyed for some bizarre project to turn this instrument into something its not. I would say to B-radical owners, it's stuff like this that will make the unchopped, undestroyed B-radical you have even more valuable as time goes on.
B-radicals were selling for somewhere between $300 and $500 on Ebay. I just checked to see what they were going for now and it has been so long that a B-radical was even listed on Ebay, no record of any B-radical in Ebay's completed listings. There were enough B-radicals made that there should be quite a few of them on Ebay and most went to people who had never played a harmonica before - and most of those people don't become players - so by all rights they should be consistently on Ebay. But they are not. People hang on to them.
Those reeds that came out of there were the only reeds made in America since the 1970s and the first made with a lengthwise mill and no matter how much you might polish a horizontal-milled reed, it will never be a lengthwise mill. There is no way to duplicate the precision with which those reeds were made.
I respect rights of property. I respect the rights of the owner of something to do whatever they want with it, but I certainly hope that this harmonica came in with 20 reeds out of it and no choice but to put something else in.
I'm one of very few people who know the number of B-radicals made and I can never say that number because I promised I would not, but we all know the number is very finite and when I look at this picture, it appears to me that this B-radical is rare, even among B-radicals. From the picture, this appears to be one of the earlier B-radicals from the days when virtually all the work was done by Brad Harrison himself, making it even more rare than a B-radical already is.
It really pains me to criticize anyone for anything. That's not what I am trying to do here. I'm not really addressing Jim here directly, or saying he has no right to do this. It belongs to him and he may do with it as he sees fit. What I am doing is imploring B-radical owners to not let the value of the instrument be destroyed. I understand no harmonica can be made that every single person will like. If you don't like your B-radical, please put it on Ebay, and use that money to buy 10 or 15 new Marine Bands. I would even bet that if you offered it in trade for 4 or 5 custom Marine Bands, even, somebody would take you up on it.
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David
____________________
At the time of his birth, it was widely accepted that no one man could play that much music so well or raise that much hell. He proved them all wrong.
R.I.P. H. Cecil Payne
Last Edited by on Oct 14, 2012 1:53 AM
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jim
1322 posts
Oct 14, 2012
1:51 AM
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I know about reed width. Not a problem. I'll fit in steel reeds there.
The instrument will not be destroyed. It will get better.
p.s. the whole idea of lengthwise milling has no value. The instrument is totally out of tune. I'd need to tune to use it. And if I tune it, it will be a polished reed anyway.
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ElkRiverHarmonicas
1337 posts
Oct 14, 2012
1:58 AM
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Wow. I mentioned before that I do not question your right to do with this what you please. I still do not. Otherwise, of the things you said, I don't think anything has ever been said in the history of harmonicas that i disagree more with. If indeed those 20 lengthwise milled reeds are so useless, perhaps you could send them to me to help me maintain the existing lot of B-radicals that are out there. I will send you 20 steel reeds in exchange. By your definition, you would be getting the far better end of the deal - trading what you deem trash for treasure. I would be very happy with that exchange and very willing to do it.
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David
____________________
At the time of his birth, it was widely accepted that no one man could play that much music so well or raise that much hell. He proved them all wrong.
R.I.P. H. Cecil Payne
Last Edited by on Oct 14, 2012 2:01 AM
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jim
1323 posts
Oct 14, 2012
2:02 AM
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of course, I didn't plan to throw them anyway for the same reason (someone may need them to maintain existing b-rads.
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boris_plotnikov
794 posts
Oct 14, 2012
1:55 AM
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ElkRiverHarmonicas
I'm waiting the time when B-radical will cost much more and I'll sell it ((:
In general I don't like B-radical.
What I like about it
1. Thick reedplates is nice,
2. way of fixing coverplates is nice.
3. Way of controllable sidevents is nice.
4. Form is nice
What I don't like
1. Don't fit any regular case.
2. Reed material is very strange.
3. Sound is a bit dull.
4. Comb is too fat which goes to a bit uncomfortable feel in a mouth and not enough fast responce.
5. Mine didn't overblow out of the box,
6. Tolerances are the same as stock harps: about 0.05mm each side of the reed and definitely need embossing. Stock gaping wasn't good.
Actually it was close in quality to a regular stock harp like Golden Melody.
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ElkRiverHarmonicas
1338 posts
Oct 14, 2012
2:03 AM
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Jim. Those aren't file marks. The reedplates are scratched because they were hand-honed to ensure flatness. Those are honing marks.
David
____________________
At the time of his birth, it was widely accepted that no one man could play that much music so well or raise that much hell. He proved them all wrong.
R.I.P. H. Cecil Payne
Last Edited by on Oct 14, 2012 5:30 AM
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JInx
320 posts
Oct 14, 2012
8:34 AM
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It does seem a shame, to corrupt such an interesting historical artifact.
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Sun, sun, sun
Burn, burn, burn
Soon, soon, soon
Moon, moon, moon
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bonedog569
655 posts
Oct 14, 2012
10:59 AM
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WOW - I am the proud owner of both a 'Jim' overblow beast 1847, and a B-radical. Both great harmonicas. I am appreciating the B-rad more and more as time goes on. Not 'too tight' - just right for my playing style and very groovey design. Jim's 1847 is also one of my best harps.
Have to say I agree with David on this one. Jim - you may well make a better sounding or playing harp out of the B-rad by the time your done. I'm sure it will sound damn good anyway - - but futzing with something that rare, special and collectible, even if it is 'imperfect' seems not the smartest to me - but what the heck. Give us a demo and
full review when you're done.
Sure wish my two other B-rads had been shipped - Did the purchaser of the company ever do anything with it David ? Is there any hope for a B-rad resurgance? A pity if that design ends up in the trashbin.
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Last Edited by on Oct 14, 2012 11:02 AM
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ElkRiverHarmonicas
1356 posts
Oct 17, 2012
5:04 PM
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I've been thinking about the "file" marks comment. Of course, I couldn't expect you to tell the difference between marks made from honing, or a file as they would look similar - but it would have served the same purpose. I'm having trouble figuring out what your problem would be with flatterning reedplates. I would be interested to hear your thoughts on this. I am somewhat perplexed by all of this, thus find it interesting.
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David
____________________
At the time of his birth, it was widely accepted that no one man could play that much music so well or raise that much hell. He proved them all wrong.
R.I.P. H. Cecil Payne
Last Edited by on Oct 17, 2012 5:05 PM
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jim
1330 posts
Oct 18, 2012
1:33 AM
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I've just pointed out that it doesn't look any different from work done with no special tools...
I mean, I expected factory work to be a bit different.
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MP
2513 posts
Oct 18, 2012
1:21 PM
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This topic is fascinating, but not for the reasons i would have expected.
If someone put Herring Master Blues covers on a pre-MS Meisterklasse ( yes they fit) i wouldn't blink; but i'm sure many here on MBH would consider this modification to be an absolute heresy- regardless of how they feel about [B-RAD] the company.
Dave virtually put his life on hold to work on the B-RAD. I absolutely know that i would have a very strong emotional attachment to the B-RAD if i were involved with the production of this harmonica. Along with his industry I have to also admire Dave's restraint.
On the other hand, you have Jim/Eugene with his determination,industry, interesting experiments, and view of the B-RAD simply as a tool.
Also he appears to not be overly impressed with this
particular 'tool'.
If a B-RAD in this condition passed into my hands i would simply restore it. It would take some time and energy to get the proper reeds for a B-RAD; i'll assume Dave would have trouble getting them since he has offered to trade- but i could be patient.
Sort of off topic:
The only stainless steel reed harmonicas i have played are Seydel 1847s. I think my first introduction to them was 2007. At the time, i did not like the tone at all and it appeared that Seydel had dispensed with the aesthetically pleasing qualities of the much better sounding Blues Solist Pro in favor of 'improvements?'
oh well, here is my heresy, i still dislike the 1847.
i think they sound like dull SP/20s. To each his own...i guess.
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MP
affordable reed replacement and repairs.
"making the world a better place, one harmonica at a time"
click user name [MP] for info-
repair videos on YouTube.
you can reach me via Facebook. Mark Prados
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bonedog569
665 posts
Oct 18, 2012
4:30 PM
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Nice summation MP. I'm on the other side of the cosmos when it comes to the 1847 tone though.
Not every ootb one sounds super sweet - but the good ones (and ones set up well) are the richest, fullest sounding harps I've ever played - and respond with a subltley that I find wonderful. I've played and still have Manji's, Hammonds, MB's GM's, SP20's, Huangs, LO's, a B-Rad and a Black Buddha MB.
In the ear of the heholder I guess.
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ElkRiverHarmonicas
1357 posts
Oct 18, 2012
8:40 PM
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It is quite unusual to see something in a factory done by hand.
The reedplates themselves, I can't tell you how they are made. But when I was told how my exact words were "bullshit, you've got to be kidding me." But it wasn't bullshit. It was incredible and I will always know how incredible it was. That's why I don't get riled up.
The technology-hating always seems kind of humorous to me, so all is OK. I get a good chuckle out of it.
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David
____________________
At the time of his birth, it was widely accepted that no one man could play that much music so well or raise that much hell. He proved them all wrong.
R.I.P. H. Cecil Payne
Last Edited by on Oct 18, 2012 8:42 PM
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nacoran
6148 posts
Oct 18, 2012
9:38 PM
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I hope someday someone releases you from your double-secret-pinky swear David. It would be fascinating to hear the details.
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Nate
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MP
2517 posts
Oct 19, 2012
12:22 PM
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yeah bonedog569,
it is all very subjective.:-)
Oh,, i've only played one B-RAD twice, but i wound up doing a repair on it so i really got to run it through its' paces.
the repair was very minor, hardly worth mentioning but i will anyway. 7 draw was out of alignment. i'm pretty sure the owner was trying to improve the 7 so he could overdraw that hole and knocked it out in the process. The reeds are mounted w/ screw posts and secured w/ a nut. easy fix.
now if all harps had screw posts for the reeds....
That is another bummer about the demise of the B-RAD.
It had screw posts securing the reeds to the reed plate. players have wanted this feature on their chromatics and diatonics for years, and an American company was the first to offer this on a stock diatonic.
If the company had succeeded i'm sure that somewhere down the line there would have been a B-RAD chromatic.
oh well.
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MP
affordable reed replacement and repairs.
"making the world a better place, one harmonica at a time"
click user name [MP] for info-
repair videos on YouTube.
you can reach me via Facebook. Mark Prados
Last Edited by on Oct 19, 2012 12:24 PM
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ElkRiverHarmonicas
1358 posts
Oct 19, 2012
12:50 PM
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There were a lot of features that nobody really knows about, too, among them features I can't even talk about due to the conditions of my pinky-swear.
One that comes to mind that you can see is the variable side vent.
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David
____________________
At the time of his birth, it was widely accepted that no one man could play that much music so well or raise that much hell. He proved them all wrong.
R.I.P. H. Cecil Payne
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ElkRiverHarmonicas
1359 posts
Oct 19, 2012
12:50 PM
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On the chromatics, we had that conversation often. Brad had diatonics on the mind and he was so focused on that - Brad is not a chromatic player. He always had one on his workdesk though. It was a 12-hole Hering. I have no idea why it was there. He never played it. The only time I think it was ever played was when some Congressman was touring around there and stopped by and Brad had me play the Elk River Boogie for him. So Brad wasn't a chromatic player, but Michael Peloquin and I were. We badgered him all the time about making a chromatic someday. He probably would have had us all designing one eventually just to shut us up, because he would never say something like "shut the hell up." He was a very good listener. We would have talked him into it eventually.
I had imagined a chromatic that looks just the like the B-radical, with side vents like the B-radical and a really cool, efficient, not leaky slide, worthy of that harmonica I had in mind. That slide still exists in my head. Who knows what we would have come up with, he treated all good ideas with equal enthusiasm, whether they came from him or somebody else.
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David
____________________
At the time of his birth, it was widely accepted that no one man could play that much music so well or raise that much hell. He proved them all wrong.
R.I.P. H. Cecil Payne
Last Edited by on Oct 19, 2012 1:52 PM
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snakes
682 posts
Oct 19, 2012
4:09 PM
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Wow, thanks for the info Dave. I'm taking my B-Rad out of my gig case anmd putting it into the safe.
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snakes in Snohomish
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ElkRiverHarmonicas
1364 posts
Oct 19, 2012
7:47 PM
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Despite my position in the company and the fact I had five on order, I only got two B-rads. They are very, very precious to me. I've got one I did put away in protection, because it would break my heart if somebody stole it - it could never be replaced, because it is the only one of its kind. The only one made with non-standard coverplates and the only one that Brad Harrison didn't do final setup on. Richard Sleigh did the initial tuning and action. I did the final setup and tuning and it was the only one I did. It was around my birthday - which is Oct. 27 - so it would have been at a time when we were still having a great deal of trouble getting acceptable coverplates, so every one we had was precious and had to go to build customers' instruments. So, Brad gave me these gold-plated covers, which were a prototype.
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David
____________________
At the time of his birth, it was widely accepted that no one man could play that much music so well or raise that much hell. He proved them all wrong.
R.I.P. H. Cecil Payne
Last Edited by on Oct 19, 2012 7:48 PM
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bigd
387 posts
Oct 19, 2012
11:21 PM
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I'm not sure how many are aware of what a good player he was. One day (pre-B-rad) years ago I came home and he had left this terrific crescendo riff on my answering machine. I own several of his Golden Melodys as well as an early B-rad. d
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Gnarly
357 posts
Oct 19, 2012
11:47 PM
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@bigd Hopefully still a good player, maybe he has been practicing a lot lately LOL
@Jim Have a good time with it, it's just a harmonica
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