I study the wonderful 'Christo Redemptor' from Charlie Musselwhite's first album, and marvel at the vibrato/tremelo effect he puts on the long 3-hole full step bend. I find this hard to do with throat vibrato with because there is so much tension in the bend.
This youtube video shows a live performance where he appears to be wobbling the harp on that note (e.g. at 40s)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ra7_Pt5DTI
So, I find that holding that bend and moving the harp away from the mouth it goes sharp, towards the mouth it goes flat - and an in-out movement can make a smooth vibrato. I recorded a bit and looked at the waveform, and it has some tremolo too.
Wobbling the harp from side-to-side seems to have no effect. Elsewhere on this forum people talk about vibrating the jaw on draw bends. What do people think he does?
BTW I'm new to the forum, so apologies if this has been discussed. I did have a look.
Great topic! I marvel at that three hole vibrato some people can produce. The way you describe above seem like cheating, that's probably the way it's done then... My three hole bends sometimes feel and sound like I'm choking a duck. Welcome to the forum and sorry my non-productive post. Hoping to see some answers on this... ---------- Pistolkatt - Pistolkatts youtube
You can add vibrato to that note from the front of the mouth if you are a pucker player. Chris Michalek and Jason Ricci have vids on this.
That is how I play pretty much any bend - front of the mouth with vibrato. First, it sounds bad@$$, and secondly, it lets you cheat and bend into pitch and dance around it.
Thanks HarpNinja. I have just tried this and yes, get a similar sound. The harp doesn't move about much, so I guess it might not be what CM is doing in that performance. Like a lot of things on the harp it seems, it could be a subtle combination of movements.
It's an important note in 3rd position so it would be good to get a fine sound on it.
First thing is you should not have tension in the bend. Bends done correctly take no more effort than unbent notes. SAme with overbends. IMHO if bending from the throat and using throat vibrato, you can get great tone, pitch control, and vibrato on all 4 notes of 3 hole draw. WIth all due respect, if you bend from the front of the mouth you change the size and shape of your resonance chamber which changes timbre and tone. This also makes fast runs with bent notes include more difficult to do fast and clean...IMHO
That said, I'm sure it sounds great in certain contexts..Just like TB and LP. The more ways you can learn to do things the better.
I think in the video he is just using a hand shake vibrato instead of throat.
Last Edited by on Oct 08, 2012 12:49 PM
"WIth all due respect, if you bend from the front of the mouth you change the size and shape of your resonance chamber which changes timbre and tone. This also makes fast runs with bent notes include more difficult to do fast and clean...IMHO "
I have to strongly challenge this. I've always bent with my tongue, as do many players, without the described issues. You absolutely HAVE to change your resonance chamber to create a bend regardless of how you do it.
I can play extremely fast utilizing bends, blow bends, and overbends. All of that is done by changing my resonance chamber via tongue position. This is also how most people approach valved bends. I am fairly certain most overbend players move their tongue to bend too.
I can play all the regular draw bends while tongue blocking too, but I would describe that as always requiring something in the back of my throat - the tongue - to chance the airflow to create the bend. Obviously, other parts of the mouth support this, but the tongue is a huge part of it.
I have tested the changes in tone relative to my playing. I do this all the time as I have a habit of not keeping my jaw lowered when playing. I find jaw position to have a much greater impact in tone than tongue position. I also find it damn near impossible to tell the difference between single notes, bent or unbent, whether I tb or pucker. I do notice a difference in timbre in tone if I keep my tongue bent on notes that don't bend, if that makes sense.
If you reference beginners materials, many suggest using vowels to initiate bending. This is because your mouth position has to change to do so.
I find this to be a very interesting conversation. The different points of view expressed by Mike (HarpNinja) and Duane (harpdude61) are very revealing and I think I can add some perspective. The subject of comb thickness has been discussed at length on these pages and there are a lot of people who believe that thinner combs are “better” – whatever that means. Better tone. More responsive. Easier to hit overbends. Whatever. However, Duane is the only guy who has asked me to make combs that are thicker than stock combs (about .270” vs. .250”) and he uses the same adjectives to describe the thicker combs that others use to describe the thinner combs. Being a comb-centric kinda guy I am fascinated by that. But just reading the way Duane describes his technique is another piece of the puzzle that I believe is enlightening. At Hill Country, Mitch Kashmar lifted his shirt and demonstrated the technique he uses to create vibrato. His stomach muscles oscillated in waves like a belly dancer’s. On the other hand, Adam demonstrated his technique which is more of a throat vibrato. I’ve not seen Duane play in person but judging from his post, I would have to guess that he is more like Mitch in his technique. Seems to me that there are lots of different ways to produce similar effects. ---------- Tom Halchak www.BlueMoonHarmonicas.com
Last Edited by on Oct 10, 2012 9:54 AM
Regarding vibrato, people generally talk about it coming from the gut, throat, or mouth.
I can do all three, but tend to automatically use "gut" when playing blues and "mouth" when playing more melodic stuff. I think Sugar Blue described vibrato using a similar technique to making machine gun noises, which would describe a throat based vibrato.
Good points all around. I can do all vibratos as well and I can play overblows and overdraws as quick passing notes or big fat whole notes. I try to play big in every way. I'd say I have a larger than average trunk and head. I play from as deep as possible in the gut. I try to imagine my throat held open with a golf ball while my mouth is held open with a baseball. I try to do all this as relaxed as possible.
Thicker combs just make sense for someone like me.
I draw bend, blow bend, overblow, and overdraw from the throat. I can bend overblows and overdraws anywhere from a 1/2 step to 1-1/2 steps while maintaing vibrato if desired....all from the throat.
My tongue does move when I reshape my throat for bends, but it is relaxed and always available for tongued notes. My technique makes it very easy to do fast tongued notes while bending. I practice fast triplets while going up and down all four pitches of the 3 draw. Try it while bending with the tongue.
I also feel my technique gives great total control of pitch. Going between the three pitches of 10 blow while maintaining vibrato is readily done from my G harp all the way up to my F harp. I never close my mouth or hinge the jaws while blow bending. All throat.
I'm sure I don't compare to others on the forum as far as musicality and knowledge of what to play when, but I do take pride in my deep sound and rich tone. I would love to compare sometime with other lip blockers as well as lip pursers and tongue blockers.
If you have a bigger total resonance chamber I want to meet you!..lol
Last Edited by on Oct 10, 2012 11:33 AM
Thank you for the detailed information. Of course I don't have these good techniques yet, as a novice. But it's good to know what to aim for.
OK, so I think what I'll do on this 3-draw-full-step-bend is for now use the harp-shake-in-out or the jaw-vibrato (both of which work straight off), and try to work on getting a good throat vibrato on this note. This will take some time. Sound reasonable?
Just to say that CM is visibly doing something different on the 3-bend vs other notes in that piece. Of course he might be applying other vibratos at the same time.
