Complete player? What is a complete player? If I can't do an overdraw on the 10th hole of a high "G" harp does that make me incomplete? Darn, it comes so easy on the high "F#". I am a lip purser/overblower/overdrawer/and the only tongue blocking I can do are octave splits...but I am working on it. That said, I have been listening to a lot of Kim Wilson lately, especially on youtube. He may not do these OBs and such but he always entertains his audience as well as any harp player does. The man has presence along with great talent. Hmmm...a satsified audience might make you a complete player...even if the only audience you have is yourself.
At last week's practice, I decided to try an 8 inch speaker cab sounds good at home for practice. After 2 1/2 hours of barely hearing myself, I told my lead guitar player .."well, the 8 inch cab didn't cut it." He replied.."yeah, you definitely didn't have your tone tonight." This Monday night, I brought my twin cab with the 2 12 inch jensens in it. All was well, but frankly I think being able to hear myself had a lot to do with it too. I think your tone is unique to you and resides inside. Like I mentioned before, vibrato in the correct amount and at the correct speed is more important to me.
Fat tone? Many variables. I don't personally think Tb or lp even enters into it for me. I know what I like. I use Lip pursing mostly to get it. I use TB for effect, but admittedly I haven't explored it much beyond octaves and flutters.
Buddah "So people like Doggycam can take my advice or leave it or argue with me until I prove them wrong. "
Man you crack me up!. You should be on Oprah.
This forum is great. There are opportunities here that were not available when I first started harp.
Unfortunately, people like you appear.
A lot of beginners frequent this forum and you try and and lord it over them.
I remember as a beginner, hanging on better harp players words
How to get that tone ,how to get that phrase,..................... how do you do THAT ???
I was lucky ,most of the players I met were humble,great people? The harp players I have met, shared information,licks,amp set-ups, phrasing, everything!!
What did this cost me ??? Nothing.
I didn't have to put up with being called stupid,dumb or being condescended to in any way.
Buddah, you may be a great harmonica player, but does that make you better than everybody else ??
Last Edited by on Feb 25, 2010 10:02 AM
" ---Recently I've been spending a lot of time working and focusing on tone. I know that there are great players like Jason Ricci and others who've really REALLY worked hard on thier tone while lip pursing, and have managed to basically sound the same while lip pursing as they do tongue blocking. I've tried all different emboucheres lip pursing - and just find that the ultimate FATTEST tone definitely comes when I TB.
Although the tone I get when I LP is definitely satisfactory, I'm still getting the impression that the really fattest tones I've heard (i.e. Big Walter, Paul Lamb, and others who sound like they've literally swallowed the harp) would be exrtremely, EXTREMELY difficult to achieve while lip pursing."
IMO, whatever way you get there is the best way. I am talking acoustic tone. Amps and mic technology have made it possible for all to have fat tone. I for one, think that in general, the older players had a much shriller tone than the young crop of players today. I find that old school shrill tone to be "fatter" to my ears than the newer players stuff, thus my tone is closer to the old school than todays school. I say play what makes you feel good. If what you are playing doesn't make you feel good while playing it, you are in need of some more work to be done- letting go and enjoying your unique soul. I have always felt good while playing since day one. It was on recording my playing that I felt bad on the playback. Basically I wanted it to sound like my heros level of playing. Now I am feeling good while playing and on playback. It also has take over 35 years to get here. I find new players often want that tone quick and will spend countless hours on snake oil. There is no way to get around the hours and years........ So, sit down, play, and keep playing. Nothing will get your tone better than playing the darn thing. Walter ------- walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year.
When you look at the title of this thread, you realize that the subtext of the conversation is dick size and race: what made the "old guys" great is the thickness and fatness of what they had.
I disagree.
Paul Lamb has it right--and his playing is absolutely terrific in those two demo/homages, BTW.
What was his point? THE SOUNDS ARE DIFFERENT. Sonny Terry sounds different from Big Walter.
Great point.
The point is to create a textured, individuated sound that is instantly recognizable as your own.
Technique is a means to that end.
Some of greatest harp players in the world are known by their thin sounds: Sonny Terry (wheezing on the 4 draw); Sonny Boy Williamson II (F harp stuff); Magic Dick (that 10 hole blow bend); Jimmy Reed (upper octave blow bends); Junior Wells (nothing thick or fat about his sound most of the time.)
Boys, all this stress on whose "tone" is thickest and fattest is sexual anxiety with a strong and unconscious racial element. Let it go.
Devote your attentions to the project of coming up with a strong, nuanced, textured, and highly inviduated sound that can't be confused with anybody else's.
Last Edited by on Feb 25, 2010 11:10 AM
This forum like most others is not unlike a TV or radio station. If you don't like what you see or hear, don't tune in. If you decide in the future to see whats on, tune in again. I think Adam hit it on the head as to the importance of individuality and creating your own style. What others may do or think may influence but hopefuly not dictate how one plays. Be true to your own style, and be open to other peoples right to their styles and opinions.
Kingley, I read your posts and agree, but by the time I thought I'd chime in all hell was breaking loose, so i just got some popcorn and sat in the bleachers. ---------- Todd L Greene. V.P.
Adam !! hahahahahhahahahahahahahhahahahahahahhahahaha
"Boys, all this stress on whose "tone" is thickest and fattest is sexual anxiety with a strong and unconscious racial element. Let it go."
I think this says more about you, Adam, than anyone else !
Its strange how you can read something and not really take it in. Then you read it again, and think WTF !!!!
I'm a simple man, with simple desires. Find a woman to love, who loves me back. I have a passion for harp and blues, and try to better my playing and understanding of the genre.
That is all.
Rick, "I've had my say on this topic. Now I'm here just for the social value"
You've just earned my respect. You, my friend have a sense of humour.
Last Edited by on Feb 25, 2010 12:18 PM
"None of the lip purse /block techniques hold true for chromatic harp-for big fat tone,you must toungue block exclusivley. "
Nonsense. Many of the great chromatic players are lip pursers/lip blockers. From what I remember, most of the players on the SlideMeister site are lip pursers as well. In fact, other than Franz Chmel and a few others*, most of the great chromtic players I can think of play LP/LB.
*I'm not including the blues players. Many of them tongue blocked the chromatic simply because that's how they played diatonic. Also, while many blues players did some great stuff on the chromatic, they mostly only played in a couple of positions/keys, and I personally wouldn't classify them as masters or virtuosos of the chromatic harp. I'm guessing some may disagree.
Last Edited by on Feb 25, 2010 2:23 PM
I'm talking about George Smith or Little Walter type tone from the chromatic. Stevie,Toots,Bonfiglio-they are all great,but thin on tone. They are not looking for big,fat chicago tone. Steve Guyger has it-in spades!!! And Paul DeLay had it too-that's the kind I'm speaking of. Sorry-I should have stated I was speaking of BIG,FAT CHICAGO TONE.
Last Edited by on Feb 25, 2010 3:14 PM
Doggy- I think it's just important to remember that it's just a thread. There will be arguments on a lightly moderated thread. I think the goal is to encourage an honest, open exchange, but the problems is, people are going to say things other people don't like. As long as people can agree to disagree we'll be fine.
I just pretend everyone else is a mental patient and that they can't help being the way they are! :)
Wow...this sure is a strange mix of enlightening, entertaining, frustrating and nonsensical.
Both methods can sound great (yes, I did say that), but it all depends on the player utilizing the technique at hand (err, at lip, errr, at tongue...well, whatever...).
Since this thread started out about "the fattest tone" (not which is "better", or WHY one is better than the other - both separate topics) I felt inclined to reply, and just speak on my own experience as a player, an instructor, and as a friend to some great players.
It's obvious what my personal preference is (TB), but this isn't about personal preference, this was started about what is "fatter". When I hear (or in this case read) the word "fatter" in association with harmonica tone/sound, I think other adjectives as well like "full", "rich", "round", "warm" and "thick". (please let's keep these adjectives to the topic at hand).
I have heard many players who use LB (lip-blocking) and have a nice sound, and even some I would say have a great, full sound, bordering on "fat". Generally, there's a bigger percentage of TB players who get these "fat" sounds out of the harp due to the nature of the TB technique, since it does require a fuller air chamber and/or embouchure to play with.
Can BOTH techniques sound good? YES. Are BOTH equal? NO. Can you get a full sound with each? YES. Is there an advantage with TB in regards to getting a "fatter"/"fuller" sound and/or tone? YES.
I have also heard several well-known LB players play some short passages TB for me and most of the time even they will hear the difference in tone/sound. There is a difference, that's for sure. Some players learn to LB and get a nice full tone, but it's not the same (or equal to, let alone fatter) as the fattest tone they themselves can get if they worked on TB as much as they worked on their LB technique. Not my opinion, I've seen this over & over & over again, and proved in front of my eyes & ears by TB AND LB players alike.
To Buddha: it DOESN'T make you better than everybody else, even in (as you say) "harmonica terms". You being a great player means you are just that - great player. Period. Not "better" - we won't even GO there because that term is extremely subjective anyway. But there are many different aspects to playing harmonica - let alone being a musician - that I doubt many people are "better then everyone else".
To Kudzu: I don't think it's at all about "sexual anxiety with a strong and unconscious racial element."…at least I know it's not for me.
Also, I think if everyone had fat tone, they wouldn't necessarily sound the same. George Smith & Big Walter sound very different to me, but I think most people will agree they both have big tone. At least most people that have listened to them and paid attention, that is.
Just my 2 cents (whatever that's worth, haha) - Dennis Gruenling
Last Edited by on Feb 25, 2010 4:28 PM
you know I have all the respect for you in the world and you know I am on a personal level.
re: "Better" it's subjective term but in general, I take it to me more rounded or knowledgeable in harmonica terms vs most players I stand by my YES. With players like You?, Gussow, Ricci, Joey etc... NO ---------- "The privilege of a lifetime is being who you are." - Joseph Campbell
Last Edited by on Feb 25, 2010 5:16 PM
@Dennis: Thanks for weighing in. I agree with you in some respects and disagree with you in others.
There's nothing wrong with full, rich, round, warm, and thick. Sometimes that's the tone I shoot for. I love Sonny Rollins. That's the kind of tone he shoots for. Houston Person is another player whose tone has always gotten to me. I've worked hard to pull some of that sound into my playing.
In the hands of the right harmonica player, there's also nothing wrong with the opposite of full, rich, round, warm, and thick. Thin, piercing, edgy, brittle, and intense. High-pass filter sound, or back-porch cut-through-the-fog sound. I cited four examples above, but I could have cited others.
Albert Collins, with his frosty Telecaster sound, epitomizes that approach. He's one of my favorite musicians. Miles Davis often works this sort of sound. So does Stevie Wonder on "Fingertips," "Hey Harmonica Man," and "Boogie On Reggae Woman." Miles and Stevie are also favorite musicians of mine.
I encourage contemporary blues harmonica players to keep their ears open and to adapt their aesthetic approaches in ways that help individuate them.
Last Edited by on Feb 25, 2010 8:41 PM
I love Albert Collins and agree with what you're saying Adam, but the topic is "fat tone" I thought. Nothing I said disagrees or disproves anything you say here or vice-versa.
I wasn't commenting on what I thought was "good" or "my favorite" tone or sound. I agree with listening to a wide variety of sounds & influences. I was trying to stay on topic & just comment on "fat tone".
.....but before I head off to sleep, let me make one other point. Two.
First point: Dennis, you're an example of somebody who has created an individuated sound and paved new ground on the harp. You did it by heading down into the low harps and solving whatever technical challenges they posed, including the challenge of delivering live amped sound on those harps. That's originality, and I applaud it. Full, warm, round sound is a central element of your approach, and you've earned the right to advocate for it.
Second point: Neither Sugar Blue nor Billy Gibson has full, warm, round, rich tone. They're both superb players. Billy, as we know, won the BMA award last year, beating out Kim, Mark Hummel, and several others. Sugar Blue has a thin overdriven sound that stays away from the bottom end of the spectrum--no warmth at all--and when he plays acoustically, he plays very percussively. As far as I can tell, he mixes tongue blocking and lip pursing. But that's not really the point--except insofar as this thread seems to be about the connection between TB and "fat tone." TB doesn't have to be about fat tone. Maybe that's obvious to everybody, but I'll say it anyway.
Billy TBs a lot, but his approach is uninterested in full, thick, rich tone. Or at least he's uninterested in working primarily with such a tone when he plays amped-up. Instead, he's come up with an original way of cycling through a range of tonal textures--from full to thin--many times in the course of a solo. He constantly thins and thickens his sound. He's one of the most original players on the scene today because of that innovation.
I encourage all harp players to explore various ways of producing a strong, full sound. Technique is one key way, and having the right equipment helps if the technique is together. By all means, spend time investigating various techniques and extending your technique.
Ultimately, though, technique--all technique--is a secondary consideration. Feeling, musicality (especially a melodic imagination), the urge to communicate something, an individuated sound, and an ability to groove with other musicians all take precedence over technique. Or at least that's my feeling.
Last Edited by on Feb 25, 2010 9:33 PM
Well, it isn't a piano...If there were one way and one way only, to play the harmonica, everyone who could get it nailed down would sound the same, and thats just not exciting to me. Harp is like coffee, it comes in hundreds of styles, blends, strengths, etc, and the common factor, for me, is that every last bit of it smells sooooo good....
Thank You Adam, but please re-read my posts. Concerning your statement "Full, warm, round sound is a central element of your approach, and you've earned the right to advocate for it.". I'm not really "advocating" for anything here. I was just adding my two cents (now it's almost four cents, should I be getting change here?!) to a thread someone else started on "fat tone" and explained my thoughts about that topic.
Both TB and LB can be thin, and both have the possibility to be thick & fat. Not all TB players have a fat tone by any means, nor does every LB player. But I stand by what I wrote in my big first babble-fest here in this thread. Not much of it was opinion (in my opinion, haha) and not sure what you can disagree with if it's not opinion per se. You may not have the same experience I have with TB, which is fine and part of what makes these topics interesting. Plus I don't look at my view as the only way or I wouldn't be here trying to understand you & trying to explain what I really meant.
The last two paragraphs you just wrote I agree with 100%...with the added comment that sometimes technique is the means to an end (the end being "communicating something through your instrument").
Kyzer - I second that
OK, now I am WAY over my posting quota for the week!
Ok. I volunteer to be the final word on this post: Get an approach, a sound in your head, and do what you need to do to get that sound by any means necessary.
Screw it. I think we should all let Sonny Rollins have the last word in relation to Miles Davis.
One VERY interesting point about the harmonica is that ANY technique you use to get a sound is fair game because it's not like there is any real risk of a repetitive strain injury like many other instruments. If you have bad piano technique or too much tension in your hands when playing a wind instrument, you WILL get a injury that will stop you from playing forever. With harmonica, the risk is much less so it allows for much more individual technique development.
Last Edited by on Feb 25, 2010 10:41 PM
It's interesting to me that just like in the overblows thread that Rick Davis started, the more traditionally based players appear for the most part (not in all cases though) to make observations. Whilst the more modern or non blues based players (in some cases) seem to only be interested in slating tradition rather than coming up with valid arguments as to why they use their method/technical approach.
In my opinion the posts by Dennis have been highly informative and well thought out as have some other peoples (hopefully mine have too). Some of the posts by people especially in the other camp, have been nothing short of a kindergarten playground mentality. Kind of the my dad is bigger than your dad approach.
Is it really too much to ask that some people who profess to have such great knowledge. Could state their point with a fact based approach in much the same way that Dennis did, so that we actually learn something?
I for one would like to learn a whole lot more about our chosen instrument and would welcome the honest advice of some of the better players out there. Am I alone in thinking like this?
Last Edited by on Feb 26, 2010 1:45 AM
Thin, Fat, TB LB Pucker Oh Hell In truth I never did wanna sound like anyone else or be "better" then anyone else. I've attended seminars by Adam, Dennis, Steve Guyger, Annie Raines, Phil Wiggins and others to learn stuff and I have. I like what I do and I think I sound like Me. That really is good enough. ----------
The Original Downtown Philadelphia Fatman... Accept No substitutes!
This whole argument seems to me to have been confused by language. I think we need a common vocabulary.
What is tone?
It seemed like their was agreement and consensus early on, that there were players who could produce rich sounding notes using either technique. Then people started talking about things that are slightly different; how the notes are ornamented by the player to suit a particular genre.
So again what is tone? Is it just the combined effect of embouchure and resonance? or is it a word which covers everything that happens from player to harp to mic to amp?
It reads to me like the argument was between people who were using the word 'tone' to describe two different (albeit overlapping) things.
It'd save a lot of unnecessary bullshit if we just agreed on what we were actually arguing about.
