harpdude61
1475 posts
Jul 09, 2012
6:45 AM
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A couple months ago, Tom Halchak of Blue Moon Harmonicas sent me a few combs of various thicknesses to try on my Golden Melodys. Golden Melody stock harmonicas have a comb thickness of .250". I tried combs both thicker and thinner on several harps of varying keys.
As a result of my experiment, I put in an order with Tom for six Golden Melody combs with a thickness of .270". I found that I had more control of the pitch of bends and overbends, as well as a fuller tone. The combs just seemed to work better for me on high and low harps.
I'm not suggesting that this is best for everyone. I have heard some of you say you prefer thinner combs. I am saying that in our quest to find the harmonica that works best for you, you might want to try different comb thickness to find what is ideal. Especially if you plan on investing in some awesome custom harps. Why wouldn't you want the ideal comb thickness for your investment.
I actually did blind test studies by putting the same key harps in my Fedora, pulling one out at random, and then listening. I could always tell the thicker comb by sound. After much switching back and forth, I can now feel the difference without playing, though very slight.
Anyway, I just want to share my experience, but do think about it. Why should one comb thickness be ideal for all harp players. If you factor in mouth cavity size, embouchure, style of play, etc..etc...why wouldn't various comb thickness make sense.
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STME58
205 posts
Jul 09, 2012
7:07 AM
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Have you done any work to see if the optimum thicness for the harp changes with the key? I was also wondering if the length of the slot in the comb would make a similar difference. I could imagine that the volume of the slot might need to be tuned for the specific reed and player.
I expect that getting a good tone involves adjusting the resonant cavity in you head to balance with the slot in the harp for the give pitch you are playing. It would be interesting to know how big of a factor slot size and shape is in this equation. I have heard the concept of a Helnholtz resonator brought up with respect to this. I did a search and found a good explanation with equations.
http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/jw/Helmholtz.html
I may try playing with the equations a bit to see how much the resonant frequency changes with a small change in neck size. Of course, modeling the resonant cavities in the head as a sphere is quite a stretch.
Your anecdotal evidence seems to indicate there is a noticable difference.
Last Edited by on Jul 09, 2012 7:08 AM
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chromaticblues
1263 posts
Jul 09, 2012
8:09 AM
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Interesting Harpdude!
I expected the tone to be better, but not the bendability. You know what might be happening is the thicker comb is making you open your mouth more and in turn making you play with better embouchure without even thinking about it.
Just a theory! Heay it doesn't matter how you get there as long as you do!
What ever helps
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barbequebob
1973 posts
Jul 09, 2012
8:20 AM
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In some ways, it's not unlike using a harp with a thicker reed plate (tho maybe closer to a double thick plate). Many players often don't have the inside shape of their mouths opened up enough to do as much as they really could be able to, and this is especially true with LP/pucker players transitioning into the TB. What this is doing is more or less like how opera singers are trained to sing using a much more open throat, which allows for better breath dispersion for support using the least amount of air for maximum tone as well as volume without straining, which is something you'll learn from taking breathing exercises from a reputable vocal coach. The more open throat also makes you sing much more resonantly, and so a very similar thing happens with harmonica as well.
Varying thicknesses doesn't work well for everyone, but the real deal is that the average player, especially those teaching themselves how to play got too quickly used to forcing everything and so they don't leave room for total flexibility so that they can easily adapt to anything and so with that, they seldom play with a throat opened up enough and wind up wasting much of their air capacity and on top of that, they wind up not playing resonantly as well, and someone who's got really good tone is also going to be playing very resonantly as well (and all the gear in the world can't make that happen anytime soon).
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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harpdude61
1476 posts
Jul 09, 2012
9:00 AM
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barbequebob...I have your words from past posts about relaxation, playing lightly, open throat, etc..etc..embedded so deeply in my mind you would not believe. Though I have never met you, sometimes I think of you when I am on stage. Am I relaxed? Am I working too hard because the band is loud? Softer,smoother,lighter, easier... You have no idea how much your words have influenced me.
I have not been able to take any vocal lessons, but I have talked to several vocalist about what they do and what they have been taught.
I have especially focused on an open throat. When I played for Buddha, he actually told me I was a throat player. The throat constricting is actually what I feel when I bend notes. It is where I feel overblows as well.
No jokes please, but my head is bigger than average. Proportion is normal, so it is logical to assume mouth cavity, throat opening, lip size etc. would be larger. So why not a bigger harp?
Maybe the extra thickness does force me to open up a bit more but I was working hard at that before I tried the thicker combs.
STME58 ..I have wondered about differnt keys. I do know that the thicker comb worked better on low and high harps for myself. I have also wondered about hole width, hole spacing, hole shape, hole depth. I myself do not have the means or the time to experiment with this stuff, but it is interesting.
What about a hole that is actually wedge shape and reduces. ..a wedge shape comb. The air flow is a cone shape and gets smaller as it goes toward the hole. Why not continue the flow?
Why should we assume that the original harmonica design is, and always will be the best design? It really has not changed that much.
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groyster1
1940 posts
Jul 09, 2012
9:05 AM
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@harpdude
my hat size is 8,so dont feel alone...would like to know if large head is directly proportional to throat cavity size...still working on throat vibrato...
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hvyj
2521 posts
Jul 09, 2012
9:46 AM
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FWIW, I had Chris Reynolds make me some .270" thick GM combs. The increased control of bends is especially apparent on higher key harps. Greater depth of tone seems to be apparent more or less equally on all keys.
Now, Sjoeberg combs have what Sjoeberg calls compression ridges in the hole chambers. I think these definitely effect both tone and control, but the effect on tone is hard to describe. As far as control is concerned, I think the airflow seems firmer which seems to provide better control.
But a lot of this may depend on the particular player's technique.
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harpdude61
1481 posts
Jul 09, 2012
10:20 AM
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compression ridges? please describe...interesting
hvyj.....glad I'm not the only one that can tell the difference..lol
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hvyj
2524 posts
Jul 09, 2012
10:30 AM
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Take a look at a picture of Sjoeberg's combs. There's ridges and scallops in the holes instead of smooth sides.
I have a Buddha harp in A that was very LOUD with the thick comb Chris made for it. I put a standard size Reynolds comb on it which normalized the volume.
BUT...you and i are both throat players, which may, or may not, have something to do with our common experiences regarding how we interact with thick combs.
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harmonicanick
1656 posts
Jul 09, 2012
11:04 AM
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@harpdude61
very interesting thread, thanks
I too have different width combs in my GM's
They sound very similar in sound to me, but then my hearing is not too good these days
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barbequebob
1980 posts
Jul 10, 2012
8:08 AM
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Harpdude61, what you just mentioned about the thicker comb working better on the lower pitched harps than on the higher pitched harps works exactly the same way as it does when using harps using a thicker reed plate as well, so that observation is absolutely spot on.
Whenever it's possible for you to take vocal lessons, especially the breathing and relaxation exercises, do so, but I wouldn't advise just going the cheap way thru a YT video because you need that vocal coach to personally see exactly what you're doing so that it gets properly corrected ASAP, as most people really aren't going to be able to see it for themselves until they've been properly taught in person. Even a skype lesson, IMO, is still not as good. I've never regretted it once since I did it back in the early 80's.
Harmonicanick, you just need to get yourself into an extremely quiet room with no one around to disturb you and pay extremely close attention to each and every minute detail no matter how small it is and yes, that means you gotta be extremely anal about it.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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harmonicanick
1657 posts
Jul 10, 2012
10:00 AM
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lol, thanks Bob
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harpdude61
1490 posts
Jul 10, 2012
10:50 AM
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Thanks Bob! I will start looking for a coach.
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hvyj
2532 posts
Jul 10, 2012
1:18 PM
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When Buddha was alive, he told me he thought the effect of a thick comb was sort of similar to the effect of double reed plates. I dunno since I've never played a harp that had double reed plates.
Chris Reynolds tells me that .20" is a little more than half the thickness of a GM reed plate. So, a .270" thick comb is a little more than half a reed plate thicker than a standard .250" comb. FWIW.
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lumpy wafflesquirt
595 posts
Jul 10, 2012
1:27 PM
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perhaps it's like mics. You need to match the output of the mic to the input of the amp [impedance matching transformer] perhaps we need a device to match the oral cavity to the harp mouthpiece. Some sort of funnel where you blow in the wide end which is matched to your mouth which then tapers down to the standard mouthpiece. :^)
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"Come on Brackett let's get changed"
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nacoran
5944 posts
Jul 10, 2012
2:17 PM
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Lumpy, would that mean we'd need to see a dentist to get acoustically sized for comb thickness?
Because if it will help my tone and if my insurance will cover it...!
I have terrible memories of the nasty tasting stuff they make molds of teeth with. I don't know how many times they made molds of my teeth when I had braces, but the stuff was worse than Piedmonts!
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Nate
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tmf714
1190 posts
Jul 10, 2012
2:36 PM
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From the Harp-L archives-a post by Steve Baker 11/12/2011-
HOW DOES COMB THICKNESS AFFECT SOUND, RESPONSIVENESS, EASE OF BENDING
AND OVERBLOWING???
Steve comments:
Preferences seem to differ on this. Some custom comb builders make their combs for Hohner models thicker than the originals, but my experience hasn't necessarily shown that to be an advantage. The only time I recall testing anything like this (a long time ago), we measured the overtone spectrum using 2 different comb thicknesses on the same reedplates. When using a comb slightly thinner than the MB/ MBDL/Crossover standard I remember finding that the sound was slightly darker: The overtone fractions were a little weaker and the fundamental a little stronger. In this case I don't recall any particular differences in the other points you mention. Personally I didn't really like the thicker combs I've tried, they mess up my embouchure and I found they made controlled bends and OBs more difficult for me, but this could be just because of my being used to the "standard" thickness. I prefer sealed Marine Band combs as used on the Deluxe & Crossover both from the point of view of playability and of playing feel.
Last Edited by on Jul 10, 2012 2:37 PM
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harpdude61
1493 posts
Jul 10, 2012
5:20 PM
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Tim Elf...what is your point here? Are you suggesting that myself and others like hvyj and BBQ Bob are making this up? or are you saying that I'm crazy and it is all my imagination? or are you being the semi-troll that you always have been and looking for a way to dispute my threads and posts anyway you can? or is it that you get your rocks off by hoping to piss people off?
C'mon tim-elf..which is it? You decide.
What Baker found is irrelevent to my findings. Sure he is a top pro and I'm hanging on the edges of advanced intermediate or whatever, but hey I got the balls to put my mediocre playing out there.
In my first post I said "I'm not suggesting that this is best for everyone".
I play a totally different harp than he does. My ermboshure is different than his. I'm sure my technique and style of play differs from his. We may have different size oral cavities. The standard thickness may have been ideal for him.
So really tim-elf..what drives your post and what did you edit out.
I do think you are smart enough to not cross the line and will never get booted...but barely.
WEll...I did edit my post too. I spelled embochure wrong the first time thru.
Last Edited by on Jul 10, 2012 5:28 PM
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walterharp
901 posts
Jul 10, 2012
5:58 PM
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i think tmf714 just wanted to point out there are different points of view on this. and Baker admits it could all be in not being used to the size of the comb as well.. so probably the bottom line, as you say in your first post, is that it works for you, but might not for everyone.
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harpdude61
1494 posts
Jul 10, 2012
6:01 PM
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maybe so walter but he has a history of disagreeing just for the sake of disagreeing. He is the type that would spend hours researching just to disagree with me.
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tmf714
1192 posts
Jul 10, 2012
6:01 PM
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@ Harp Dud- my point is in line with Steve Baker.
I am not suggesting anyone is making any of this up.
No one is crazy. I just don't agree with it.
I am not a troll,I just voice my opinion on certain subjects as I see fit.
If I piss people off,thats not my objective. You need to be able to take critisism with a certain degree of salt.
I only edited out a spam prevention code that somehow got included in the post.
Last Edited by on Jul 10, 2012 6:02 PM
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harpdude61
1495 posts
Jul 10, 2012
6:07 PM
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Get some different combs and try it yourself. Then I'll listen.
If I disagree with something you say, it will be based on MY experiences...not someone else.
Your post would make sense if I had stated something like "now listen up harpers, I've got it figured out and this is whats best for ALL of you"...but I did not.
I can handle criticism but if someone else had posted this instead of me...I just doubt you would have went to the trouble.
History repeats..again.
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nacoran
5951 posts
Jul 10, 2012
6:45 PM
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Harpdude, let's take it one thread at a time. I'm interested to hear your opinion on comb thickness, but I'm interested in Steve Baker's comments on it too.
Tm, it's grain of salt! I'm sure that's what you meant. It was probably just your arm-brochure messing up your typing! (The problim with correcting other people's spelling or grammar is they will usually return the favor.) (All in the spirit of jest though.)
And yes, I know there is a problim with my spelling.
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Nate
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