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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! > Low tuned harps
Low tuned harps
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jimbo-G
66 posts
Jan 08, 2012
5:44 AM
hi all, i got my first low tuned harp (364 C) last week and have been only playing that. Today i felt like i wanted to play a higher key and i think my stamina, control and speed on the normal keys has greatly improved. i don't know if its just me but i think its a great way to build your chops up quick. i can now control my blow bends alot better and hit the OB's straight away although they are still a bit squeeky. I think this is a really good thing for the advanced beginner to do.
FMWoodeye
174 posts
Jan 08, 2012
6:08 AM
Kinda like using the lead "doughnut" on your bat in the on-deck circle?
jimbo-G
68 posts
Jan 08, 2012
11:04 AM
Ye like when you get used to driving a big sports bike and then jumping onto your mates 125, it feesl small and you can throw around with ease.
smwoerner
18 posts
Jan 08, 2012
11:18 AM
Thanks, Jimbo, I now know what I'm in for...I just ordered a Low D and a Low F.

A couple of years ago I thought it'd be fun to take a Hayabusa I had out to the track for a day...after a day of heaving that beast around a 600 felt like a bicycle :)
Waldo
8 posts
Jan 08, 2012
12:00 PM
I'm trying to look that harmonica up, and I'm not able to get a lot of info on it.

What kind of comb does it have?
And anything particularly bothersom about it? Rattling reeds, flimsy, etc.

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Constantine
jimbo-G
70 posts
Jan 08, 2012
12:21 PM
It's a hohner marine band 364 they come in 3 keys but I think only the C is low.12 holes wooden comb painted red, big sturdy thing open at the back but doesn't crush easily. the covers are held on by screws and the reedplates are held with nails. I haven't had any rattles or anything so far but time will tell. Because Its a marine band its razor Sharp so it needs a bit of corner sanding and you might need to gap the reeds to your preferences. The holes in the come are spaced further apart so can take a bit of getting used to when switching to a standard MB.There is a 365 model that has 14 holes but I don't know much about those.
Waldo
9 posts
Jan 08, 2012
12:53 PM
Will the comb have swelling problems?

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Constantine
jimbo-G
72 posts
Jan 08, 2012
1:32 PM
I haven't had any yet but it might, when I shine a torch inside you can see that the paint doesn't cover all the sides and back only about 10mm in. Iv played it practically all day and nothing yet. It does feel a bit better when its warmed up.

If it does you could always just seal the comb.

Last Edited by on Jan 08, 2012 1:33 PM
PT
125 posts
Jan 08, 2012
7:19 PM
Why get such a big instrument? Seydel and Hohner both make low pitched harmonicas that are the same size as a regular diatonic. Much easier to control.
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Willspear
28 posts
Jan 08, 2012
7:40 PM
Yeah for sure playing a low tuned harp is a good workout. Since I acquired a few my playing has improved significantly

Not just stamina but tone wise aswell.

They really take a gentle long deep breath to make the sound good and the same thing is intensified on a highr pitched harp.

The largest improvement is in learning to play with the right breath and not forcing it. Which I thought I had down but the lower tunings really are driving it home


Edit
The seydel blues favorites really are quite comfortable and play well in those low tunings. They feel like a million bucks too in the hand

Last Edited by on Jan 08, 2012 7:42 PM
jimbo-G
75 posts
Jan 09, 2012
1:50 AM
@Pt
Lol, The only reason I got the big one is because I seen a video of sonny boy using it.
jim
1126 posts
Jan 09, 2012
2:58 AM
364 and 365 are totally useless.

PT is absolutely right, get a normal low diatonic.

Let me explain a little more WHY richter harmoncias are useless above hole 10.

The top octave of the regular 10-holer goes like this:
C E G C
B D F A

That already gives us an inverted breath pattern, and a very uncomfortable 2-semitone blow bend in hole 10.

If we stretch this pattern further, we will get a disaster:

C E G C E G C E
B D F A B D F A

Note two things:

1) To play the major scale, you'd need to go
-10 -11 +10 -12 +11 -13 +12 -14 +13'' +13

2) An INSANE number of bends in each hole...

Now try to tell me it is logical and makes ANY sense...


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Last Edited by on Jan 09, 2012 2:59 AM
jimbo-G
77 posts
Jan 09, 2012
3:21 AM
Dude you always attack the ritcher tunning you got to remember that everyone has their preferences. I do appreciate your opinion but some people, like me just enjoy playing and discovering new things. I personally just play what feels best to me and don't get to heavy into tunnings.

I'm sure you have been where I am now.
Steamrollin Stan
228 posts
Jan 09, 2012
3:26 AM
I stuffed my suzuki low F harp ages ago, and this week i ordered some new reeds from Ron, i actually like the thing but its all out of wack now, cant wait to mess about with some train chuggin and this time i'll take it easy on dem bends.
jim
1127 posts
Jan 09, 2012
5:19 AM
Yes you got it right, I believe richter tuning should be abandoned and forgotten. And I have reasons to hate it.

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HarpNinja
2063 posts
Jan 09, 2012
6:34 AM
You're spot on, jimbo-G. Practicing on low harps is a great way to build a lot of really great technique and tone. There are any number of 10-hole harps in low tunings that will match the physical dimensions of your regular harps.

Granted, you can't get all the keys in all models, but you can get low enough for training purposes.

I think even using a Low F to do woodshedding on will greatly improve your chops. I know Chris Michalek talked about only practicing with Low F for a year when working on bends.

IMO, if you get much lower than even D, it becomes hard to hit the 1-3 hole bends, making it less suitable for that approach.

I have every low key widely available, which means everything other than Low B and Low Ab, down to LLF. My gig case holds 20 harps, so I carry:

C
G
D
A
LE
B
LF#
Db
Eb
Bb
LF
LC
LG
LD
LA
LDb
LEb
LBb
LLF

I have a LLF#, but don't do any songs with it live. I haven't missed not having LB and LAb. One time I missed having a standard F, but I am already over it. When playing with a band, I carry a standard F over the LLF. I don't like the lower keys for fullband work.
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Gnarly
145 posts
Jan 09, 2012
8:47 AM
@Jim Standard tuning AKA Richter is not a bad tuning, it's just not the only tuning.
BTW, I recently bought two 365 harps on eBay, did a bunch of retuning including using the draw reeds on the top six holes of the worse one to replace the blow reeds on the same holes of the better harp. It is now a 14 hole Fourkey in F penta blow, E penta draw starting on G3.
Fourkey isn't for everyone either, but now I can play Layla on one harp LOL

Last Edited by on Jan 09, 2012 9:35 AM
jim
1128 posts
Jan 09, 2012
9:49 AM
@Gnarly

Very, very intereting. I've yet to make that tuning.

Can you drop in a short sample using it?

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Gnarly
147 posts
Jan 10, 2012
12:33 AM
This video is a few months old--I am starting to get better at playing the tuning now.
Gnarly
148 posts
Jan 10, 2012
12:37 AM
Jazmaan, on the other hand, already has the hang of it. The 365 I built is similar to this one.
His was built by Pat Missin. Same inversion, but his starts on Bb3, mine on G3.

Last Edited by on Jan 10, 2012 12:42 AM
Ross Garren
3 posts
Mar 27, 2013
11:06 AM
Hey all, here's a little video I made about low tunings...I've found them a great addition to my "harp rig". Also included in the video is a recording of a session I recently did on a low C harp.

Best,
Ross

Last Edited by Ross Garren on Mar 27, 2013 11:10 AM
MP
2691 posts
Mar 27, 2013
1:13 PM
Interesting- the use of the low C 364/365 to build chops.
i used to work out on a 364 for breath control and stamina prior to playing my other diatonics.
i'd recommend it.

"Kinda like using the lead "doughnut" on your bat in the on-deck circle?"

Exactly, Woodeye!
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oldwailer
1959 posts
Mar 27, 2013
10:12 PM
@Jim, you got me curious--what tuning would you prefer above all others?


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jbone
1216 posts
Mar 27, 2013
11:06 PM
If I'm not mistaken SBII played a 364 some and got good results with it.

I have a 364 I'm messing with some these days. My latest low harp, a hohner in D, is a welcome addition to my case, both for duo stuff in 2nd and also some band stuff in 3rd.
I also have a Manji in low F which is due for new reed plates I think. Draw 4- again. But this set of plates has lasted a long time.
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jimbo-G
162 posts
Mar 28, 2013
11:14 AM
Yip iv still got my 364, still like the tunning, and still loving the sound of these big things.

I think Jim is all about weird tunnings and stainless harps, just an observation over the years.
Goldbrick
125 posts
Mar 28, 2013
12:07 PM
I love the low harps
For gigs I can often get by with 365SBS in C, F and A
and a special 20 in low D ( 'til I can afford an SBS in D). That pretty much covers the keys we play in except for tunes in F ( use a regular Bb)
Granted I play drums too so don't play on every tune.
I really like the tenor sax-like bottom you get. Oh yeah-also got a low F Huang ( sounds obscene) that I use for songs in a drop tuning

Obviously I am pretty much just playing crossharp style
Thievin' Heathen
175 posts
Mar 28, 2013
10:06 PM
I like my 365's. I like my SB365.

I thought the 260 put all that Richter tuning controversy to rest?

Last Edited by Thievin' Heathen on Mar 29, 2013 10:44 AM
SuperBee
1035 posts
Mar 28, 2013
10:42 PM
I dunno how you folk can play a low C. I still work hard to bend the 1 hole past halfway to E on my LoEb. Low F I can just about deal with. I never tried a Lo C but I doubt if I'd be able to bend anything below 4 draw...
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fred_gomez
43 posts
Mar 29, 2013
12:52 PM
i play entirely by ear so here goes. i play the 365 G and C. usually i play in crossed sometimes i play the G in 1st. now heres where it gets confusing at least to me. i play the C in G and the G in D all over the damn place including hole 14. i dont know how i do it but i do. my best guess is im doing some things in 3rd and 1st. i do the low chugging and bends in G/D then i mostly squeek blow the high end on the 4 then mostly draw on the 5 all over the damn place always seeking to see how close i can come to messing up without actually doing it. i love playing exclusively in 3rd usually switching harps. first is really hard on my brain i always get that itch to play crossed and actually do mess up. from what i gather the 365 C has 4 extra low notes the 365 G has 4 extra high notes. i hear the g isnt low but it doesnt sound like a tiny marine band. i think its a higher bigger sound and my preffered harp rather than use a high G with a loud band and natural enemies of harmonica like violin,slide,accordion, keyboards and saxophone.


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